1.65" Hotchkiss, 42 x 150 mmR & Sims-Dudley Dynamit


#1

I cannot find anything close to 42 x 150mmR ammunition.
Please tell me what these are, and the gun they were used in. A customer brought in several different variations AP, HE (inerted) and Canister. Several have brass cases with Winchester markings and U.S. Army Ordnance “wheel” acceptance marks. Another has a three piece nickeled[?] case marked FRANKFORD ARSENAL.
AP and HE projectiles have the very wide rotating bands typical of the 1890-1918 period. One canister has a “bullet shaped” brass case marked “AM. O. Co.” on the side. Another canister has cylindrical case with soldered seams.
What are they?
http://oldguns.net/pix/14620.jpg
http://oldguns.net/pix/14621.jpg
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http://oldguns.net/pix/14623.jpg


#2

John

SWAG

Nordenfelt 2-pounder, 1.65" ??? Or any other 2 Pdr???

Ray


#3

Lucky find. These are 1.59inch (hope I remember the figures correctly) mountain gun cartridges. Outstanding!!!


#4

These are US 1.65" Hotchkiss Mountain Gun cartridges. The latest one I’ve seen is a 1919 dated UMC Co. Cannister round. The one with the flat tip and brass base fuze is called “Common Shell”. There are quite a series of these, ranging from the early Hotchkiss made rounds with a wrapped brass case with an iron head riveted on, and fired by the flash from a friction primer through a hole in the case base to a variety of very attractive FA made rounds from the 1890’s, some with tinned brass cases,etc. The case was also used with a special propelling charge and copper or brass cap to compress air to launch the projectile for the 2.5" Sims-Dudley Dynamite Field Gun.

Jim


#5

THANK YOU!


#6

John,
These are some great cartridges.Check this link for more information: spanamwar.com/hotchkis165.htm

Jim could you give more information about the 2.5" Sims-Dudley Dynamite Field Gun and ammunition. I don’t know anything about this.

First round is the early case for friction primer.
Second I thought might be blank because it looks black powder fired.
Could this be the special charge case?





#7

Here are the catalog pages from the 1905 U.M.C. (Union Metallic Cartridge Co.) showing what were available from U.M.C. for cannons. I have included the page showing the friction primers for those who may not have seen these before.

I hope the images are all legible. They are the best I can do as the catalog is very tightly bound.


#8


#9

Could anyone buy these large artillery calibre rounds in 1905?


#10

Those friction primers were used extensively throughout the 2nd War For Independance and during most of the Indian Wars where muzzle loading cannons were employed. In my metal detecting days I found many of them at Indian War battle sites in Montana and Wyoming. What is interesting is that I found quite a few where the top part, containing the wire and the friction composition, had broken off when pulled by the lanyard, leaving the tube stuck in the cannon vent. The tube then had to be removed with a special pick carried by the Gunner. Considering that the cannon was still fully loaded, prying out the primer tube must have had a fairly high pucker factor.

Ray


#11

Falcon–Yes, as far as I know, anyone could purchase them. There was NO law against owning one of the guns. Anyone could purchase Full Automatic machine guns here in the U.S.A. up to, I believe, 1927.


#12

[quote=“Ron Merchant”]Falcon–Yes, as far as I know, anyone could purchase them. There was NO law against owning one of the guns. Anyone could purchase Full Automatic machine guns here in the U.S.A. up to, I believe, 1927.[/quote] How things change, I would like to be able to freely purchase an artillery cannon. I know there are peope in the USA today who shoot artillery pieces, but they must have to have all sorts of unwanted draconian government controls. In the UK we are restricted to 20mm and Below for rifled weapons (as far as I know), and of course no semi auto (except .22RF) and no full auto whatsoever. For smoothbore guns it is nothing with a bore over 2 inches, although muzzle loading cannons made before 1939 are exempt as they are classed as antiques. I could go on forever with our ridiculous and complicated laws.


#13

Western,

Your fired, unprimed case could have been used for the 2.5" Sims-Dudley Dynamite Gun, but I can't say for sure as I don't know how long the guns stayed in service.  The special 1.65" Blank cartridges with copper or brass caps that I've seen (and have), are all headstamped "WINCHESTER R.A. Co.  NEW HAVEN. CT. U.S.A." and would date from about 1898-1900 with that headstamp.  Complete information on the gun and ammunition can be found in the 1899 edition of the "Chief Of Ordnance Report".  I have this book, but it's in very fragile condition and I don't know how to scan the appropriate pages without further damage to the book.  Perhaps someone else has copies of the chapter covering the Sims-Dudley Gun.  One other thing of interest is that the chapter lists another 1.65" Blank for this weapon that has a special 9.5" long case.  I have case which is apparently a modified 1.65" case, and has the same headstamp as listed above. It is tapered, has a mouth diameter of 38.8mm, and is 235mm long.  I believe that this is also for the Sims-Dudley gun, and is an experimental Special Blank, perhaps coming before or after the 9.5" long one listed in the report.

Jim


#14

Thanks Jim, little I could find :http://www.spanamwar.com/dynamite.htm Despite the name the shell doesn’t contain dynamite but nitro-gelatine.


#15

I just got the appropriate storage device for these cartridges and I thought that I would share:)


#16

My impression is that the restrictions on the sale of machine guns, and some other weapons such as sawed-off shotguns, shoulder-stocked pistols, etc., came about with the Federal and National Firearms Acts of the 1933-34 period. Could be wrong, but that’s what I recall.