10.4 x 43 Spotter


#1

From left to right
Brass case, no hstp,
Brass case, no hstp, yellow over red tip

  1. Is the US designation 40 Spotter ? If yes, why (the measurement is 41) ?
  2. The right one is a Spotter.
    What is the left one without painting ?

Thanks
JP


#2

Actually, they were listed as .405 spotter, with .410 probably being the nominal bullet diameter (groove to groove diameter of the bore, as we measure things here in the US).

Right one is the Spotter-Tracer tactical load. I don’t recall, now, the ID of the left one, perhaps someone else can help out there. Might have been the inert loaded training variant.


#3

Tactical .405 spotter tracer on the right,inert bullet load on the left.


#4

What weapon system were these used as spotters with?


#5

Here is the proof and high/low pressure version of this cartridge. The first high/lows split the case and so the support ring was added. The paint on these things is very brittle and chips easily. NO HEADSTAMPS.

A variety of spotter experimentals were developed experimentally during the 50s and 60s to provide target identification for the 106mm recoiless rifle system. We mounted 6 of these on a small tank body and called it the ONTOS. The final adopted spotter was the .50BAT spotter tracer.

This photo shows a better view of the .50 BAT spotter rifles attached at the rear of each barrel.


#6

Thanks First !
The no color bullet is excatly as the colored one, meaning a small hole in the tip.
Why ?
JP


#7

Thanks First !
The no color bullet is excatly as the colored one, meaning a small hole in the tip.
Why ?
JP[/quote] For testing,guns,magazines, feed systems,packaging,ballistics,etc. The effects of the system on the tactical shell has to be tested. Something which might crush the nose is not good. You want to determine this with inert loads of the same shape ,size and composition.

You may have read in a recent post,here, where a tanker said that he NEVER fired a tactical round during his service. Practice and inert loads are far cheaper to make and use than tactical loads and prefered in training and testing where the live load is NOT necessary.


#8

Thanks CSA, I knew what the Ontos was, apparently alot of people, even military vehicle enthusiasts and collectors, have never heard of it. I have also heard of the the .50 BAT Spotting rifle, and have a fired .50 BAT case in my collection.


#9

The ONTOS was not a good idea. It did not have the range to take out a tank before the tank got it. The Marines used it as mobile artillery instead. Fun to drive and shoot I am told but limited utility. Some went to Israel as well. There are many variations of the 50BAT including French, Israeli, Spanish , Swiss and Argentine- others too.


#10

Apparently the Ontos was designed to fill a requirement for a fast tank killer from WW2 experience, and was obsolete by the time it weas introduced. I was aware that they were used as artillery, including with the “Beehive” flechette rounds for clearing large areas of jungle.


#11

CSAEOD

You left out the British .50 BAT types. Kynoch made many variations, some with exposed detonator in the nose a la M48 and others with L11 type tracer incendiary projs.

Therew ere also variants with artillery type screw in primers and internal flash tubes.

Regards
TonyE


#12

Yes a collection of all the types of 50BATs could go 100 or more. England falls neatly in the “others too” which I mentioned. I have had lots of the British ones. Did you folks use the 106rr with the 50BAT or did you actually get some ONTOS systems?


#13

We never got any Ontos as far as I know, I also don’t think we ever used the 105mm RCL System.


#14

The 50BAT was used with the 106mm system not the 105. Why was Kynoch making all those 50BATs ?


#15

Sorry 106mm, I was told the shell used in the 106mm RCL was actually 105mm, but called 106 as not to confuse it with the 105. We used the L4 “MOBAT” (Mobile Anti Tank) RCL AT gun, which was a lightened version of the L6 “WOMBAT” (Weapon Of Magnesium Batallion Anti Tank) 120mm RCL AT gun (below) with a .50 BAT spotter fitted. The Kynoch drill rounds turn up much more often than fired or inert operational rounds here in the UK, I don’t have a British .50 BAT round at all yet.


#16

The 105mm recoiless has a different case from the 106. The projectiles are not much different BUT they do have different markings. Many of the 106 drill rounds which were surplused over the past years have the 105 projectiles in them.

Where is the spotting rifle in your photo ?


#17

For the 105mm I have seen once an orange painted squash head shell (HEP-T M326) and wonder about the design and the very different markings.
Has anybody an image of the 105mm case or of the various cartridges?
What was the 105mm recl. gun designation?


#18

[quote=“CSAEOD”]
Where is the spotting rifle in your photo ?[/quote]

My photo is of the WOMBAT RCL AT gun, which was not fitted with a spotting rifle, I could not find a photo of the MOBAT, which was fitted with the spotting rifle.


#19

While the ‘common’ .405 is often listed as an inert loading, it is in fact a tracer loading. The forward portion is loaded with an inert salt. The aluminum sleeve is visible at the tip of the bullet.


#20

[quote=“Paul Smith”]While the ‘common’ .405 is often listed as an inert loading, it is in fact a tracer loading. The forward portion is loaded with an inert salt. The aluminum sleeve is visible at the tip of the bullet.

[/quote]
Thank you !
JP