10 x 23mm T Russian blank and trauma cartridges


#1

Can anyone give me all the details about the 10 x 23T Russian blank and trauma cartridges produced for use in the Makarov “Service Traumatic Pistol MP-471?” I am not confusing this with the Russian 10 x 32T cartridges, of which I have loaded and inert specimens.

I suspect that the “trauma” cartridge is a rubber ball. However, I could use a complete description of any loads made in this caliber, including case material, overall cartridge length, head, base and outside mouth diameter (which I suspect are about the same as the 10 x 32T, primer type and cup material, colored seals if any, and type of “projectile” for each. If the “projectile” is a pre-split plastic cap at the case mouth, in the case of blanks, if made, and possibly gas cartridges, the color(s) would be appreciated as well.

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE ONLY LOAD FOR THIS CALIBER IS THE RUBBER-BALL LOAD, JUDGING FROM THE EXACT WORDING OF THE INFORMATION ON THE GUN. The gun is based on the Makarov Models IZH-79 Gas Pistol and IZH-79-9T Traumatic Pistol. There may be no blank or gas loadings for it since it does shoot a projectile of some sort - it seem a 10.2m/m rubber ball.

I have never seen this round and would not know it except for having literature on the pistol that uses them.

I will appreciate any help that can be given, including pictures of rounds, if available.


#2

John, the 10x23T projectile is a rubber ball weighing 0.68-0.77g and is fired at 295-320 m/s, developing only 30-39 joules.

This site gives a little more info: lveplant.ru/travm_eng.htm

However, this site may have an error, as I have noted from another source (which I can’t find offhand) that the 10x23T is a much hotter loading than the 10x22T (500-600 m/s), so is intended for official use only (these rubber-bullet guns can be bought by the public, as long as they develop no more than 50 joules).

Edit to add another site with some info on such weapons: imzcorp.com/en/company/65.html


#3

Tony - thanks!

I’ll have to do some more searching. I want to see if these 10m/m Russian Trauma cartridges are all based on the same dimensions other than case length. I have the 10 by 32T, as I mentioned.

I was not even aware of the 10 x 22T. Anyone have any idea what guns it was chambered in? Am especially interested in whether or not it was chambered in a Makarov-style pistol. If so, I need verification (a website in Russia, such as a manufacturer, that shows it, for example). The Izhevsk website doesd not show or mention this caliber or any of their pistols for it.


#4

John,
Makarov style less-lethal pistols are chambered either in 9mm P.A. (Civilian-legal) or 10x23T (eligible for certified private security only)
see
imzcorp.com/en/company/65.html (9PA)
imzcorp.com/en/company/112.html (10x23T)

for those interested, here’s brief rundown on ‘traumatic’ ammunition as sold in Russia

  • .380ME GUM for revolver (one of the less popular, due to weak loads)
    see techcrim.ru/cat/travmbullets.html (russian)

  • 9 PA, loaded with rubber ball, depending on MFG and weapon can deliver from 30 to 70-80 Joules with single rubber ball
    see techcrim.ru/cat/travmbullets.html (russian)

  • 10x22T, loaded with single rubber ball, muzzle energy vary from 30 to 70J; used in Umarex / Walther PP, P22T and P99T tear gas / less-lethal pistols as well as in some Turkish-made less-lethal pistols;
    see techcrim.ru/cat/travmbullets.html (russian)

  • 10x23T, “service” cartridge with same bullet as x22 but with hotter load, ME is about 100J
    see techcrim.ru/cat/travmbullets.html (russian)

  • 13x45R (with rubber ball or CN gas), for revolvers,
    see akbnn.ru/ratnik_en.php

  • 18x45 eclectically primed for “barrel-less” weapons such as PB-2 or PB-4 or Kordon; uses old DBCATA concept in which long and strong case (aluminum or polymer) is used as a barrel. Rubber bullet diameter is ~15mm, weight about 12 gram, ME ~80-85 Joules.
    Also available with flash-bang, colored signal, illuminating and tear gas spray loads
    see tnwt.ru/complex.asp?tab=3 (russian)

  • 12 Ga x 35, cut-down and crimped 12 Ga brass case, for modified sawed-off shotguns (SxS or pump, yeah), sibgle rubber ball weighting about 6.2 gram, ME ~ 100 J
    see see techcrim.ru/cat/travmbullets.html (russian)


#5

Very interesting. I hope Pepper has some of those LTL rubber ball bullets for his collection. They are really neat. I wonder how effective they are at stopping someone from doing what they have their mind set on?


#6

well, since all those cartridges are ‘approved by the Russian Ministry of Health care’, the effectiveness is … well, marginal.

Guess for yourself, with those 9mm cartridges you’ll get about 60-70 Joules at the target - far less than when firing 7.65 Browning. With light clothing, those can cause a skin wound; those of bigger caliber can break the bone at point-blank, but that’s about all.
The worst thing is their (in)effectiveness against the winter clothing, which could be quite heavy and thick here in Russia.
Therefore, some wise heads invented the 12 gauge short ‘condom throwers’, first in the form of the sawed-off SxS shotgun, and then in the form of the short, pistol-gripped pump action gun…

personally i carry the PB-4 ‘Osa’ in 18x45, with one barrel loaded with flash-bang (quite good in nighttime and against stray dogs, which sometimes are problem here), and three others are rubber slugs.

I wish i could carry a commander-sized 1911 in .45ACP, but for now the ‘LTL’ guns is still much better than my bare hands.


#7

Unfortuanately here in the UK we are not even allowed to carry rubber ball pistols, tear gas pistols or even blank firing weapons. We are not even allowed to own these “less lethal” pistols here.

You say these aren’t very effective, but surely the psychological effect of the noise of a gun firing, along with the impact, would do something. Could it possibly make the target believe thay had been shot and lose their concentration, giving you time to get away. I know most kids looking to steal your wallet (well in the UK anyway) would probably be left pretty shaken up after being hit with a rubber ball round.

How do you select which barrel you want to fire on the PB-4 “Osa”?


#8

Falcon - you cannot count on any single scenario in an armed confrontation. When you present a weapon to an armed assailant, whether to fire it or threaten him, you are giving him three options;

He can run away. Probably the best option for the the person initially attacked.

He can surrender.

Or, he can choose to fight back.

If you are armed with a blank-firing gun, toy gun, empty gun, trauma gun (less-than-lethal) and your opponent has the real thing, you are in a world of hurt.

They are probably better than no weapon at all, but in my opinion, should not have their presence made known until it is time to actually use it. firstly, there is, these days, in almost any Western country, no LEGAL justification for using even a non-lethal trauma gun or gas gun against an unarmed opponent. The law expects you to retreat or give up your valuables rather than inflict harm of any sort on a criminal in most jurisdictions. There are exceptions, of course, but it is sometimes terribly expensive to explore those exceptions before a jury. Secondly, against an attacker armed with a superior weapon - knife, real loaded gun, or even a truly heavy blunt instrument like an iron pipe, shooting him with a trauma gun is a real crap shoot (no pun intended). If he chooses to resist, you have now frightened him into wanting very badly to kill you so that you can’t do the same to him, since he will probably not realize that he has been shot with a non-lethal projectile.

If one is determined to protect himself regardless of possible consequences, a not unreasonable approach, than a large-caliber pistol loaded with good self-defense ammunition is the best approach in some situations, and a large-caliber shotgun loaded with lethal ammunition in other scenarios.

Unfortunately, the laws, and in most parts of the country and the Western world today, the attitudes about self-defense are stacked against the honest person being assailed by a hoodlum, expecially if the the hoodlum is a “juvenile” (never mind that he could be a 17-year old psycho weight-lifter with a build like “The Hulk” attacking a 70 year old lady).

Just my take on it. Others are free to disagree, of course.


#9

I have often wondered that before, what if the person you happen to kill in self defense is a Juvenile, even if they did first threaten you with a knife/gun and you then retaliate with live ammunition.