11.45mm x 42mm Danish Remington


#1

I have these two 11.45mm Danish Remington rimfire cartridges. I believe the cartridge on the left is a military loading ‘11mm Skarp Patron til Bagladerriffel M.1867’ and I understand it was loaded by Tohuset Arsenal.
But what is the cartridge on the right? Is it a military loading and, if so, what is the designation?


#2

Tøjhuset loads should be headstamped with a “T”. Unstamped cartridges are said to be US-mades for Danish Armed Forces.

In “Cartridges For Collectors Vol. 4” Fred Datig shows this one:

Seems to be close to your cartridge.

Datig’s Vol.4 is based highly on the (formerly) cartridge collection of the Royal Danish Arsenal Museum in Copenhagen.


#3

Yes, it does! Excellent, thank you Defender.
Regarding the other cartridge pictured left in my photograph…I am just looking at Datig vol.IV page 116 and the lower cartridge also looks very similar to mine.
Is my left hand cartridge a load that you are familiar with or could it also be an experimental?


#4

Hm … hard to say. From the picture it looks like a standard Danish military load to me.
Datig mentions a “heavy lead bullet”, but unfortunately gives no weights.

Cartridges weights of the Danish “T”-stamped rounds are about 34.8g (rifle load) and 34g (carbine load).
BUT: Standard bullets have 4 cannelures (one is hidden in the case) and Datig tells of 3 cannelures. Maybe the invisible backpart of the bullet makes the difference.


#5

Jim, the cartridge on the right looks like a US made .45 Danish Remington, which is the same “caliber” as the Danish made 11.7x42R at left (11 mm skarp Patron til Karabin). The most typical examples were made by UMC, and yours looks like one of them. Regards, Fede.


#6

Ah…okay Fede, thank you. I suspect the only way to tell the UMC-manufactured rounds from the experimental suggested by Defender would be to pull and weigh the bullets.


#7

As Defender just confirmed to me we shall stick to the official Danish caliber designation for both case types of RF and CF which is “11mm”.
Measuring bullet diameters and using them as a caliber/cartridge designation is simply incorrect and missleading.


#8

Very good point, Fede!
Seems I’m a little too focussed on Danish stuff.

Is “.45 Danish Remington” just a US designation for the metric RF caliber or is it a caliber of its own?
A little Internet research brings up everything (Danish rifles, 11 mm RF and CF cartridges …) mixed up. But nothing substantial.


#9

It seems that is not as simple as just a US designation because during 1866 E. Remington and UMC were involved in the development and manufacture of the guns and cartridges for the Danish government, as it happened with other RF and CF cartridges made for other countries This mean that “.45 Danish Remington” may have been the official designation used before Denmark adopted this cartridge in 1867. However, as I ignore who actually developed this cartridge -it may have been a Danish commission- and when its manufacture was started in Denmark, I can’t confirm that.

Jim, I’m not sure if Datig’s identification is correct and how it differs from a US made unheadstamped example by UMC or WRACo.

Regards,

Fede


#10

Fede, thanks for your opinion on that.

In Vol.II Datig shows something about the .45 Danish Remington Rimfire:

His measures and drawings are taken from single cartridges, I think. Differences to others may possible. And not to forget: Vol.II is from 1958 and reflects the knowledge of that period.

Just a wild guess: The original development may be the US cartridge with conical bullet called .45 Danish Remington Rimfire. Denmark trialled different shaped bullets (Datig shows another experimental ogival bullet with cannelure in Vol.IV) and adopted in the end the known cannelured flat pointed bullet.