11.5x60R Munchen 4 1881 oldie


München is a city, what is the name of the arsenal? Also, anyone has any tricks how to scan this? I had to take a side photo to see München.


I have it listed as a product of the Bavarian State Arsenal, Munich, Germany, but I don’t remember where I got that info from so it may not be correct.

It looks to me like your scanner has a very narrow depth of field. On a camera you can set the depth of field to just about anything you want. On a scanner I am not aware that you can change it at all. I lucked out, the scanner I have has a pretty wide range (for a scanner)

You are probably already aware of it but the small circular punch mark on the base of your round is a indicator that the case has been reloaded.


Thanks, Phil, I was just about to ask about the punch mark.


I saw one of the rifles for this cartridge for sale in the UK today. You can buy it as an “obsolete calibre” firearm without having a license but it is illegal to fire it. They wanted £650 for it.


A small circle was the reloading mark.


Dutch, may we see the entire box?


Sure, it was a nice find at the Saint Louis show.


Dutch – I am aware of the use of the small circle for a indicator of a reloaded case. I am still of the opinion that the small circular punch mark was also an indicator, at least in the case of the MÜNCHEN headstamped rounds. Here is another one that is on a case that shows signs of being reloaded.

If the punch marks do not indicate a reloaded case, what do they indicate?


Phil, According to the book on the Muaser M71 ammunition by Windisch and Kellner, the name of the factory for your ammunition was Hauptlaboratorium München. They made the cartridge from 1875 until at least March 1883. I cannot find any mention of the meaning of punch marks or circles in their book, including in the English-language supplement. If it is there, it is buried in the German Text which, for the most part, I cannot read.


Phil: The facility name in the exact form cited by John is seen on an original packet of Werder pistol-carbine cartridges made in 1870 and shown in Hoyem’s vol. 2 in the “Bavaria” section. Jack


Thanks John and Jack for the correct name of the Arsenal.

(Note: I just read that Hauptlaboratorium München was moved in 1883 and opened as Hauptlaboratorium Ingolstadt in 1885. Both were under control of the Royal Bavarian War Ministry.)

I have been doing some googling about the 2nd Reich and it makes for some interesting reading.

The Second German Empire (1871-1918) was a Confederation composed of clearly separate constituent states (4 kingdoms, 5 grand duchies, 13 duchies and principalities, and the free cities of Hamburg, Lübeck and Bremen). Within this Confederation the inherently powerful Kingdom of Bavaria was able to retain its own army, which would fall under Prussian command only in times of war. Bavaria could also retain its own railways, its own postal system, maintain its own diplomatic contacts. As with the defunct North German Confederation, the Presidency was vested in the Prussian Crown and the Prussian Minister was to be Imperial Chancellor.

Since Bavaria retained its own army, the Bavarian Arsenal at Munich may not have been required to follow the procedures used by the other German Arsenals. The Bavarian headstamp is a little different than the other German Arsenals in that MÜNCHEN is spelled out and a crown is used, while the others just used a single letter to designate the manufacture. I think with this in mind it is reasonable to think they may have marked reloaded cases in a different manner also.

Just my thoughts, I’m probably way off base on this.


Wikipedia states that the Hauptlaboratorium in München was moved to Ingolstadt in 1883 and began munitions production again in 1885. I have a 6/crown/84/J/ headstamp; I don’t know what the explination for that is.


Yes Phil, you are right.

The Haubtlaboratorium München was moved in 1883 to Ingolstadt.
They replaced the “München” by the character “J”.
Because the markings were pressed in the case, we think the equipments to make these cases came from G. Roth.

Known are the Months;

5,6,7 of 1884
5,6 of 1885
5,6 of 1886
9,11,12 of 1887
4 of 1888



Phil - I would say that the explanation for your 1884 round from INgolstadt is that Wikepedia was simply wrong.
Not unusual. Production from Ingolstadt is confirmed for the months May, June and July 0f 1884 by the Windisch-Kellner book. Last production month shown in that book, and the only confirmed month for that year, is April 1888.



I think the showed Wikipedia picture is a head stamp from a Reichsrevolver round.



Well, so much for placing any reliance on Wikipedia.



Wikepedia has its place. You just have to watch who made the entries, and evaluate any given piece of information on what you already know about the subject that is written there as well.
I use it mostly for quick reminders of country histories and the like (I was a history major in high school and college, but as you know, that is a mere 50 to 60 years ago, depending on the grade we are talking of. To say I have forgotten a lot would be an understatement, plus the world has changed a lot in our lifetimes.

There are plenty of errors I have found in gun and ammunition entires in Wikepedia, but overall, it is still a useful tool if used with care and some pre-knowledge or corroborating information.