11,65x60,4R?


#1

I have exhausted my search. Please help.

Case length; 2.36" or 59.96mm
Case at mouth; 0.484" or 12.30mm
Case at base; 0.543" or 13.81mm
Case mid section; 0.488" or 12.39mm
Rim; 0.610" or 15.49mm

Base has some bell shape to it as it rises towards opposite end.

Thanks,

Joe


#2

This looks like a 11.6x60R D Express - Germany/Austrian version of a 450 Express with a different case shape and smaller rim thickness


#3

This cartridge is dated/created at the end of 19th century at George Roth in Wien and is based on British .450 Express 3 1/4". Produced in two lengths - 60 & 65mm. “bell shape” is visible on those two factory loaded as well. Povazske Strojarne offered this caliber in limited quantities till late fifties.


#4

Thanks for the posting.

So is 11,65x60,4R or DWM #96 as I see in the DWM 1904 catalog, the correct official designation?

Joe


#5

Ok - if we are going to expand on the info, here we go:

The 11.6x60R D (“Deutsche”) was the most popular of the “450 D” series and was produced by DWM as case #96 c1880. The Roth version was case #127 and was introduced a little later c1882. This caliber was the most popular of the “450 D” series being also produced in Czechoslovakia and altogether by about 15 companies over the years.

This case type has no English equivalent but it approximates to 2.4in or 2-3/8in. Utendoerffer specimens with the “D” type hs are known. Like other “D” types this has a rim thickness of 1.0mm.

German companies not only used the English 360 Express but also the English 500 and 450 cases as the basis for a series of cartridges. The German Utendoerffer and DWM companies both produced the English 450 3-1/4in BP Express from the late 1870’s. In Europe this was referred to as the 11.6x82.5R E Express being DWM case#71 and #268). Utendoerffer examples are known with a "H.UTENDOERFFER E " hs. “E” is most likely to stand for “ENGLISH” or as sometimes speculated but less likely “ELEY”.

The case dimensions differ between the “D” and “E” types as follows:

The German “D” (for “DEUTSCHE”) version of the English type has a more tapered case at the base just like the 9.3mm/360 and 12.7mm/500 types. The 450 “D” Express case tapers rapidly from the head at 13.85mm to 12.27mm at 30mm above the base, then a virtually indistinguishable taper to 12.2mm at the mouth. Rim thickness c1.0mm

The “E” (“English”) case tapered gradually from the head at 13.9mm to 12.25mm some 10-12mm from the mouth.

There were many case lengths. Confirmed 450 (11.6mm) “D” cases that exist are:

11.6x44R (EXP47)
11.6x52R (EXP58)
11.6x60R (EXP38)
11.6x63R (EXP49)
11.6x65R (EXP39)
11.6x70R (EXP52) (also 11.6x72R listed by Waffen Dorfner ??)
11.6x82.5R (EXP40)

Note that approximately:

45mm = 1 3/4in
52mm = 2in
60mm = 2 3/8in
65mm = 2 1/2in
70mm = 2 3/4in
72mm = 2 7/8in
76mm = 3in
82.5mm = 3 1/4in
86mm = 3 3/8in


#6

Thank you, very good explanation.

Joe