11 mm Gras


#1

Has somebody in his collection this short range Gras adaptor?
(The body looks to be made with two different metals)

The common ones are either all brass, either all steel
JP


#2

Hello J.P.
It would seem that you don’t have my book Cartridges of the Gras system in your library !
You could read page 79 "the tube is made of a steel core bored to 6 mm, and jacketed with a bronze tube with the outside profile of the 1874 case.
H.A.N.D
phil


#3

[quote=“phil12”]Hello J.P.
It would seem that you don’t have my book Cartridges of the Gras system in your library !
You could read page 79 "the tube is made of a steel core bored to 6 mm, and jacketed with a bronze tube with the outside profile of the 1874 case.
H.A.N.D
phil[/quote]

I don’t have your book right now with me Philippe
I said the outside is made of two metals
Could your confirm please you are talking of this one (not of an all brass outside or an all steel outside tube)
Thanks
JP


#4

Here are some pictures of the three specimen


Perhaps somebody is expert in pictures.

  1. First question:
    Do you think the color difference of the case in the B&W picture is due to a visual effect of the picture ?

  2. Second question :
    Here is a view of the training tube showing the blank ctge and the bullet.

Some french people think it is due to the fact the escaping gazes are blackening half of the case.

I think it is not that for 2 reasons:
a) In the old times people used to take their time, and therefore they would have cleaned the case before taking the picture.
b) the limit between the two colors is too much perfect to be due to a gaz leakage. Why would it stop is such a line and not decreasing slowly ?

What do you think ?
jp


#5

Hi collectors,

I’ve attached a pretty collection of copied bits, made by my friend.
Many success in collecting for year 2013.


#6

What are the black bulleted ones?


#7

Different variants of bullets: Armor piercing-incendiary-tracer.
Perhaps based from the book “Cartridges of the gras system”.


#8

Thanks! Very interesting cartridges!


#9

[quote=“sig210”]Different variants of bullets: Armor piercing-incendiary-tracer.
Perhaps based from the book “Cartridges of the gras system”.[/quote]
Were these intended for aircraft machine guns?


#10

The Armor piercing incendiary ctges have a shorter case
The Wood bullet ctge is violet
and so on
jp


#11

I have an 11mm Gras round with a commercial SFM headstamp and flat-tipped brass jacketed bullet.

It is similar to the first cartridge on the left, bottom row of sig210’s photo.

I read somewhere that this was intended for the 11mm Gras Vickers guns used in American WW1 Aircraft. Is this correct?


#12

[quote=“Falcon”]I have an 11mm Gras round with a commercial SFM headstamp and flat-tipped brass jacketed bullet.

It is similar to the first cartridge on the left, bottom row of sig210’s photo.

I read somewhere that this was intended for the 11mm Gras Vickers guns used in American WW1 Aircraft. Is this correct?[/quote]

Hello Falcon

no, it is just an commercial ctge for Gras riffle
jp


#13

Thanks JP.


#14

I have since acquired a Gras round with a Lead bullet and the headstamp “WESTERN 1915”.

Municion.org says that this round was made for the Vickers MG. Is this correct?


#15

Hi Look on my old page :
http://www.histavia21.net/amaviapag/11_gras_avia.htm
Bsrg, Dan


#16

Jean Pierre , you are wrong when you say that Brass jacketed Gras cartridges are commercial ones. The proof, look at this blue print from the French Ordnance Board dated 1916. nearly 300 000 000 of Gras cartridges were made by SFM during the war years , all of them bearing the SFM hstp ;in the lot, only 5150 000 were made end of 1917 and 1918 with a shorter case for tracer loading, and loaded by ECP Bourges.
It is wrong to say that SFM hstp is always a commercial loading, an other proof , if you look the last Chassepot post regarding an unusual box of 32 rounds of 9 mm para, it is corresponding to an order of the French War Ministry of 1926 , factory drawing 10174 and a note is added : cartridges are provided in 32 rounds boxes. The hstp of this cartridges is the classical SFM GG Only the box is bearing informations which can proof an official contract.

H.A.N.D
phil


#17

hello Philippe

Thanks for the info.

  1. Do you think these brass jacketed ctges were for Vickers gun ? I was thinking of that when I answered Falcon.

And where did go all these 3 000 000 000 ctges ?
I have never seen one packet coming from the battle field.

  1. Regarding the 9 para ctges shown by Yves, I agree they are for the War Ministery, meaning for military use.

But where do you put the boarder between military and commercial hstp?

Because any ctge case with a commercial hstp could be used for a military ctge (either for a special contract, either because of a special loading)

All depends of what you call military.
For me it is when it is adopted by the army.

  1. I didn’t know the existence of a 10174 drawing dated from 1926. Do you have it ?

There must be also a drawing 10155 dated from 1919 showing a 9 para SFM made ctge. Is this one the oldest 9 pare drawing ?

thanks
jp


#18






Bsrg, Dan


What type of bullet is in these 11mm Gras cartridges
#19


#20

HI, its a command from Gode “Dieu” ( in paradise :-)


AmiC, Dan