11 mm Gras





Bsrg, Dan

The limit to determine a civil and a military use is impossible in front of a single sample, only the box can give you the clue for a correct identification; but I am sure , due to the amount of Gras ctgs made during WWI that you have more chance to find cartridges of the war time left than any other made for a civil use from 1900 to 1950.
For which use were these Gras with Brass or copper jacket for! I don’t believe they were made for gate or railway keeping ! the only one I can see is for Vickers or Hotchkiss MGs!
It is true, packet labels are not found but it seems evident that the cartridges were already mounted on belts when delivered.
One can consider that for SFM manufacture, official planned supplies, (War Ministry or any other administration) a specific headstamp with date is used , but , as SFM doesn’t have the same inertia than Military cartridges plants , she was very often put to use when specific manufactures were required , either in calibers , primers, loadings, in this case , a classic hstp is used and only the labeling can be a matter of proof.
The manufacture of the 8 mm 1892 cartridge revolver can be likened to the Gras , , SFM made 53 000 000 of cartridges all along the war , all bearing the commercial hstp…
And what about the 33 000 000 of 7.92 Mauser with ordinary SFM hstp manufactured for shooting in captured weapons. And I could go on with plenty other calibers.

phil

Munavia,
my special thanks for the drawings that show details of the 9 mm Parabellum manufacturing process.

[quote=“JPeelen”]Munavia,
my special thanks for the drawings that show details of the 9 mm Parabellum manufacturing process.[/quote]
Hi, thannks my friend, hier one part for the rest of theses drawings.
Best Regards, Dan




[quote=“phil12”]For which use were these Gras with Brass or copper jacket for! I don’t believe they were made for gate or railway keeping ! the only one I can see is for Vickers or Hotchkiss MGs!
It is true, packet labels are not found but it seems evident that the cartridges were already mounted on belts when delivered.
phil[/quote]

Hello Philippe;

the story of such an amount of 11 Gras ctges is interesting me.

The Hotchkiss MG used by french infantry were in 8 Lebel during WWI.
Therefore no need for 11 mm Gras.

The Hotchkiss and Vickers used on french planes for plane fighting and ground attack were either in 8 Lebel or in 303.
Once again no need for 11 mm Gras.

We have to wait end of 1916 to see the introduction of two special models of Vickers and Hotchkiss designed specificaly for antiballons.

I am not sure of that but, from the pictures taken from what the people find on the battle field, from what it is said in the books, or in the forums; it seems the MG links are loaded with only incendiary rounds, and not a mixture of normal and incendiary ctges, which is logical.

I am perhaps false and some people have more info.

Therefore, if I am right, where went these full metal jacket ctges?
Perhaps the order was cancelled or delayed?

Perhaps only the ones loaded with Devismes bullets were delivered in fact.
And even the amount of 5 000 000 of such rounds seems to me too high when we see the small amount of special Vickers or Hotchkiss guns manufactured.

jp