11 x 57 R Berdan, Bulgarian


#1

I have a cartridge that I believe is a 11mm Gras. I have the book “Cartridges of the Gras System” by Mention & Ramio. The headstamp “O/1/82/Mx/ is shown on page 7 but does not identify who the “O” is. I think the “Mx” is
"Atelier de Fabrication d’Issy-les-Moulineaux” who is the metal supplier.

Also, I do not find the round nosed brass FMJ bullet as a load type for 11mm Gras. in any of my references. So, is this a 11mm Gras or something out. The headstmp says “Yes” and the diminisions say “Yes”, but what model of 11mm Gras is it.


#2

Hello!
I have the same round which is indentified as an 11mm berdan bulgare made in France by “Issy les moulineaux”, I haven’t got my books with me so I can’t answer now what the O means.


#3

Laurent–YES!!! That is it. With your identification I have now found it in two books. Thank you.

I still need to know what company “O” is.


#4

Hello Ron.

Are you sure it’s an “O” ?
Could it be a “G”?
IssY Les Moulineaux was the city of Gevelot factory.


#5

Telmo–Yes, it is a very clear “O”, not a “G”. I thought “G” at first also, because I thought the cartridge was a Gras, but it is definently an “O”


#6

Ron

See this photo from a 11 mm GRAS:[/img]


#7

I also have this cartridge by mine has a “P” instead of “O”. Here is a list of manufacturers and metal suppliers from an ECRA journal years ago and although “P” is there, “O” is not:
MANUFACTURERS (FRENCH)

AAR Cartoucherie d’Alger
ABN Atelier de Construction de Besan


#8

For the berdan bulgarian the letter at the top has nothing to see with the
manufacturers and metal suppliers.
I have some with L for example

Indeed these ctges were only made by SFM and this has nothing to see with the Gras ctges which were made by different manufacturers.

JP


#9

JP–OK. What does the “O” (or is it a zero) stand for. It can’t be a month abbreviation. If it is not a manufacture, just what is it?


#10

Hi Ron
Perhaps the name of the lot. Starting at A and then B and C aso
JP


#11

[quote=“Will REUTER”]
HX Hauts-Fourneaux & Aci


#12

JP-Perhaps you are right that the letter at 12 O’clock on these cases is a lot identifier and not a manufacture. I have never seen the use of letters for this purpose, but it is entirely possible.


#13

[quote=“Falcon”][quote=“Will REUTER”]
HX Hauts-Fourneaux & Aci


#14

For Gras and Lebel the segmentation with metal supplier and manufacturer is given for sure.
For strange ctges, like Bulgarian Berdan, with Mx (and perhaps also for Gras , why not) all the ones I have seen had only ONE letter: D, G, L, N, O, P, V,…
Often the letter is said as unknown
And when it is known it would be interesting to see if the manufacture was existing at this period of time.
Hstp Mx is very old , Gevelot was a private company (despite they were the first to make mass production for Gras ctge), made a lot of trials, and so on
Therefore why to apply a general rule to Mx (except if somebody has an headstamp with two letters) ?
jp


#15

[quote=“jean-pierre”]For Gras and Lebel the segmentation with metal supplier and manufacturer is given for sure.
For strange ctges, like Bulgarian Berdan, with Mx (and perhaps also for Gras , why not) all the ones I have seen had only ONE letter: D, G, L, N, O, P, V,…
Often the letter is said as unknown
And when it is known it would be interesting to see if the manufacture was existing at this period of time.
Hstp Mx is very old , Gevelot was a private company (despite they were the first to make mass production for Gras ctge), made a lot of trials, and so on
Therefore why to apply a general rule to Mx (except if somebody has an headstamp with two letters) ?
jp[/quote]
I confirm, even for Gras ctge, when you have Mx the other letter is a lot number and not a metal supplier.
JP


#16

I have started to make, for fun, a compilation based on factory drawings and samples of some collectors of the ctges wih hstps like:
date/letter/date/Mx/
a) we always have only one letter.
b) till now I have found the letters :
A, B, D, E, F, G, L, M, N, O, P, V
c) the ctges are from different calibers (11 mm Beaumont, 12 Marine,
11 Bulgarian Berdan, 11 for short range Hotchkiss tube, different European calibers, and of course 11 Gras)

I would be interested if somebody has hstps with other letters
JP


#17

I’ve just received from a friend the following info :
H (on .50 Remington pistol army),
S (on 11 mm Dutch),
W (on 11 mm Berdan Bulgarian),
Z (on 10.4 X 38 R Suiss and 11 mm Gras).

Till now we have, associated with the hstp “date/letter/date/Mx”, the letters :
A, B, D, E, F, G, H, L, M, N, O, P, S, V, W, Z

Lot number, or perhaps number of the machine, but in any case nothing to see with metal supplier, for 11 mm Gras or any other caliber (for hand gun or riffle).
JP


#18

The so-called “11 x 57 R Bulgarian Berdan” CALIBER is a myth. This is in fact a G