11mm Mauser by Hauptlaboratorium Jngolstadt


#1

Hi,

I am having trouble identifying the country of origin and factory for the below cartridge. Any history would also be good to know.

I believe this cartridge is a 43 Mauser/11.15x60Rmm. The dimensions are:

Bullet diameter above case neck: 0.428 in.
Neck diameter: 0.465
Shoulder diameter: 0.516
Rim diameter: 0.587
Base diameter: 0.5136
Case length: 2.387
Overall length: 2.93

In case the photo isn’t clear, it is a four element headstamp, which is divided by lines and has a beveled base. Starting from 12 o’clock a symbol of a crown, 3 o’clock “87”, 6 o’clock “J”, and 9 o’clock “3”.

Any information about origin, history, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Heavyiron


#2

Norwegian Jarmann Cartridge ( 10,4mm) for the single shot bolt action rifle of the same name. Short lived Boplt rifle in Norwegian Service under the Skandinavian Shared kingdom Period;(prior to 1905).

Nowadays any surviving Jarmann rifles are most likely found as Seal Hunter’s rifles, fitted with a cut-down sporting stock, shortened barrel and a very heavy cast bronze Buttplate, used for clubbing seals.

The Crown and the “J” give it away, as well as the Bullet diameter (.428)
The 11mm mauser uses as .446 diameter bullet. Factory probably Kongsberg Arsenalet, Norway,

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#3

I suspect that DOCAV’s identification is incorrect. The case you have is most likely to be the 11mm Mauser.

The base diameter given is of the 11mm Mauser whilst the 10.15mm Jarmann is significantly larger. The hs indicates manufacture by the German Ingolstadt Laboratory (rather than from Norway) and this facility produced 11mm Mauser (only ?) from 1884-1888.


#4

Please pardon me if I clarify the last answer, which is correct but in one case potentially misleading, simply due to wording. Firstly, this is positively an 11mm Mauser produced by the Hauptlaboratorium Ingolstadt facility, spelled at that time as “Jngolstadt.” The letters “I” and “J” are almost completely interchangeable in German. The Crown signifies that this was a Government facility. The headstamp is pictured, and the round clearly identified, in Dr. Erik Windisch and Bernd Keller’s fine work on this caliber of ammunition.

Regarding production, WBD’s answer was spot on for the Model 71 Mauser cartridge for Ingolstadt - they produced it as he said from 1884 thru 1888. The wording though, could intimate that that is all that Ingolstadt produced and that they only produced through 1888. I don’t think that was the meaning, but it could be interpreted like that. In fact, Ingolstadt produced ammunition until at least the end of WWI. I have specimens of 9mm Parabellum and 7.9 x 57mm Mauser ammunition produced by them in the early 20th Century. I do not know if they produced the Reichsrevolver cartridge or not, or any other larger-caliber ammunition. that is for experts in those fields to tell us.


#5

I am sorry Doc AV, I am also WBD and John Moss opinion.

The added picture are head stamps from a Mod 71/84 Mauser round.

There were two Bavarian factory


#6

You guys are incredible!!

Thank you all for the great and detailed information you have provided. I have had this cartridge in my modest collection for years and have never been able to find out much about it. It makes me glad that I joined the IAA!

Several years ago I thought this might be be the Jarmann cartridge but I got to measuring various dimensions and it didn’t match the Jarmann. It came closest to the dimensions (in one of my meager sources) as the 43 Mauser\11.15x60Rmm\11x60Rmm Mauser which I guess is also known as the 11mm Mauser. (It didn’t exactly match the dimensions in my reference either, but it was close.)

I have searched the internet on and off for several years looking for the “J” and was only able to find a vague and indefinite reference to Jngolstadt which didn’t help me one bit. I knew the crown could be indicative of manufacture in Norway or Sweden, but Jngolstadt was in Germany??? I had absolutely no idea the crown could mean the cartridge was produced at a German government facility which was one of the missing pieces of information. I am even surprised to see a photo of an 11mm Mauser with a matching headstamp.

I am now going to update my cartridge database with the appropriate information and history.

Again, thank you all very much for taking your time to solve a mystery for me.

Heavyiron


#7

[quote=“JohnMoss”]The letters “I” and “J” are almost completely interchangeable in German.
[/quote]

Sorry John, this needs some clarification. Approx. till WWI the German “I” was sometimes written as “J” (being German myself I still do not know why) but in spoken German and later in written the Letters “I” and “J” were allways two different ones (like in English). Today these two letters are clearly different in Writing and no confusion is possible anymore. German script professionals may know more.


#8

My error…Thanks to all out threre who contributed to my education on the matter.

As to the “I” and “J” problem, one must remember that German Fraktur script was used heavily up to the 1930s, and thus results in the confusion with Roman I and J. People who didn’t have Fraktur (or Gothic) German as their native alphabet would commonly make these errors; Germans of the period would not.
Only with the wide use of ( Western) typewriters and teleprinters during the 1930s and the War years did Fraktur type finally fade from the scene by the late 1940s, with the Allied Occupation.
I still have some Wartime “Field Library” books for Soldiers, Printed in Fraktur…A Lot of German soldiers only ever learnt their ABCs in Fraktur, and the Volkischer Beobachter ( The Nazi Party’s Daily paper" The People’s Observer" )was still being printed in Fraktur in 1945.

Regards, Doc AV
(and thanks again for the corrections)