12.7 mm ammunition for Japan


#1

Another excerpt from a US report on German technical assistance to Japan:


#2

Has anyone ever seen an example if this 12.7 made by DWM or any German firm ?


#3

German made .50 ammunition has been discussed before on this forum but it is hard to say if “the methods of producing 12.7 mm ammunition used by DWM” actually means they produced any 12.7 mm/.50 ammunition.


#4

I would suspect the American report is talking about ammunition for the Japanese-built version of the German MG131 aircraft flexible MG used by the IJNAF. The Breda ammunition was for an IJAAF gun. Jack


#5

Jack, not in this case, there is a separate chapter on German 13 mm machine guns and ammunition.


#6

Where?


#7

Both the Italian guns and the Japanese guns used the same Vickers 12.7 case type.


#8

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11281


#9

Thank you.

As far as I know there is no actual specimen of either the 50BMG or the 12.7 Vickers made by the Germans.

I would like to see that.


#10

Fede is there anything on the 20x138B weapons and ammunition?


#11

Only a very brief mention:

“Miscelaneous: In addition to the foregoing, Japanese representatives in Germany, in May 1944, received data on the following: 20 mm Mountain Flak 38, 50 mm Flak 41, 128 mm Flak 40, 128 mm Flak 40 (twin), Flak aight 38, 200 cm 40 A Flak searchlight”.

There is more information in another report which has been already included in Elks’ book.


#12

One more bit:

Blockade runners from Europe to the far east
Surface vessels
Successful
Second season Sept 42 - Apr 43

Vessel -------- Tonnage (GRT) - Departure and arrival - Items of interest in cargo
Brake (tanker) - 9,925 --------- Sept 42 - Dec 42 ----- 4,803 rounds 2 cm shells


#13

Another report:



#14

From examples of Japanese 12,7x81SR ammo collected in the South Pacific,
( an Oil Drum full,from the one aircraft), the Japanese were already making their own ammo in at least 1941 ( Type 1 --Ho3 machine Cannon, a Browning 1921 Clone)…From dates on Fuze Bodies; mixed with this ammo was a large number of BPD 37 and 39 Cartridges ( Both HE-I and Tracer).

Whilst the Germans may only have got involved in any 12,7mm Projects in 1942-43, Italy was already supplying 12,7 Breda ammo ( the Japanese made HE-I is an improved version of the Breda Fuze system) as well as 13,2 x99 (Hotchkiss) ammo. Italy also supplied captured French made 13,2 ammo as well, and also Hotchkiss made magazines for the Japanese 13,2 AA Guns
( have seen specimens of the Guns here in Australia, with Hotchkiss marked Mags…most common were the triple mount Naval AA, also used on the ground.

Seeing that Japan used Italian Breda ammo mixed with its own as early as 1941, it is possible that Pearl Harbour was partially fought with Italian Ammo.

Any " Pearl Pickups" of Japanese origin 12,7 at all (fired cases) to confirm the usage of Breda ammo there.?

Before 1940, Italy was supplying Japan by surface vessels…after June 1940, all cargo to and from Japan was by Large Cargo Submarines…Italy, Straights of Gibralter, Cape of Good Hope, Japan; with return via Cape Horn, and again Gibraltar, or to the Italian Atlantic Base at Bordeaux. After February 1942, Singapore became a staging point for both Italian and German Cargo Subs.( outwards trip).

Regards,
Doc AV


#15

That should be Ho-103: the Ho-3 was a 20mm cannon. It was a scaled-down version of the .50 Browning, being smaller, lighter, and faster-firing (900 rpm). One of the better aircraft HMGs.

The Japanese used two different types of 12.7mm HEI ammo: the conventionally-fuzed Ma 103 was derived from the Breda, the fuzeless Ma 102 was ignited by impact crushing the thin metal nose cap. I’m not sure that the Ma 102 would be considered an improvement by most people - not a good idea to drop one of those nose-first onto a hard surface!

[quote]Italy also supplied captured French made 13,2 ammo as well, and also Hotchkiss made magazines for the Japanese 13,2 AA Guns
( have seen specimens of the Guns here in Australia, with Hotchkiss marked Mags…most common were the triple mount Naval AA, also used on the ground.[/quote]
The Japanese Navy used the 13.2mm Hotchkiss (which they dubbed 13mm Type 93) in single, twin and quad mountings, but I’ve never heard of a triple.

They also used the Hotchkiss 25mm AA gun (as the Type 96), which did come in a triple mounting and was also used on the ground.

Not so. The 12.7mm Ho-103 was strictly an Army aircraft gun. The IJN planes never used this calibre, just the 13mm Type 2 (MG 131) and 13mm Type 3 (Browning), but those came along later in the war.


#16

I don’t believe this has been mentioned in this thread yet, but the IJNAF also used the 13.2 m/m Hotchkiss in yet another Browning as a fixed gun in late naval fighters. Jack


#17

Where their other 13.2x99 loads besides the Ball? Was the round used in aircraft other than the fixed mount mentioned?


#18

Actually, I did: “The IJN planes never used this calibre, just the 13mm Type 2 (MG 131) and 13mm Type 3 (Browning), but those came along later in the war.”

The Japanese referred to their 13.2x99 guns as 13mm. The Browning HMG rebarrelled to take the 13.2x99 Hotchkiss was the 13mm Type 3.


#19

The IJN used several loadings: ball, AP, tracer, incendary, explosive/incendiary, and a decoppering round. There is no distinction made between the ones used in the Type 93 AA gun and those used in the Type 3 aircraft gun.

I only know of the late-model Zero (A6M5b, A6M5c, A6M7, A6M8 prototype) installation as a cowling gun.

The 13mm guns used in flexible mountings were the Type 2 (MG 131 - modified to have percussion rather than electric ignition).


#20

In addition to the synchronized type 3 in the fuselage the late Zeroes also carried one unsynchronized 13.2 m/m gun in each wing, paired with a long-barreled Oerlikon. Jack