12,7 question


#1

Hello I have a 12,7(.50)and my question is what is it for projectiel?
Is it fake! of factory made?
headstamp = TW 45
Thanks!!
regards
gyrojet


#2

It is SSB cartridge

SSB are Salvo Squeeze Bore projectiles witch 5 projectiles per round, experimented in Viet Nam, for a taper bore design.

Michel


#3

lousy photo…better to come…but a couple variations whereas you can see some of Paul’s “better half” work

to see it’s little cousin…go to the IAA home page and see Pauls Cartridge of the Month Sept 2007…7.62 x 51 RICA

but here is it’s scarce “middle cousin” (30-06 RICA SSB)…and sorry it is not sectioned…but I did say scarce…and I haven’t given it to Paul to slice in two just yet


#4

Thanks for the explanation of this cartridge
It looks like it is not a scarce one!!
regards
gyrojet


#5

These are the REAL little cousins of that 12.7 Salvo Squeeze Bore round. These are all 9mm Parabellum caliber, part of the Colt Salvo Squeeze Bore program for a Colt double-action auto pistol Model 1971 and for the Israeli Uzi SMG. The two rounds that appear to have nothing but a plastic bullet, rather than a Sabot with smaller caliber projectiles in it, are indeed that - they are dummy rounds. there is another dummy with a W-W black case with no primer pocket (flat head like a rimfire), but I did not include that in the picture as I am not convinced at all that it is a real part of this series, but rather a “basement job.”

The best information I could get from a friend who worked for Colt, but was not involved in SSB, was that it was not made at Colt. Although they may not look it in the picture, every item in the photo is different in some way from every other item. All items from the collection of John Moss.

John Moss


#6

Proper name for these is Caliber .50 / .30 SSB were a Colt development were used in VietNam not just experimented with & yes they left the bore at .30 caliber. Also known are .45 ACP variations. Along with the 7.62 & 9 Para variations shown.


#7

Colt Salvo Squeeze Bore cartridges, Caliber .45 Auto, that Pete DeCoux mentioned. The selection shown here is disappointing, I know, compared to those of 9mm. This is all I have, though. The two separate sabots are grooved, but that didn’t show up in the scan, no matter how I adjusted it. They also rolled a little during the process, but I felt this was good enough for the purpose. The two separate sabots are obviously, from their depth (almost solid), meant for dummy rounds as shown with the 9mms, but I have never seen one of them actually in a cartridge case. Collection of John Moss.

John Moss


#8

John, I enjoyed your photos of the 9mm SSBs. You also described another dummy round you didn’t picture:

[quote]there is another dummy with a W-W black case with no primer pocket (flat head like a rimfire), but I did not include that in the picture as I am not convinced at all that it is a real part of this series, but rather a “basement job.”
[/quote]

I have seen this round also and didn’t even pick it up for the same reason-it looked like a basement job. Now I am changing my mind. Ted Koch had two of these in his collection, and as you know he was very close to Rob Roy and Colt during the SSB days. Most of us got our rare SSBs from Ted.

Then today I was sent some material from testing of the SSB loads in April 1970. It was targets, spark photos of bullets in flight, pressure measurements, fired bullets and assorted other stuff (posted on my website at gigconceptsinc.com/Colt-SSB.html) and mixed in the material was a bag with some of the black W-W dummy cases and another dummy identical to the two in Ted Koch’s collection. This dummy mixed in the test material from the time period of the development of the SSB convinces me that it is contemporary with the test and belongs in the collection. It looks rough (all three I have look rough) but if it is a “basement job” it was probably done by the guys doing the 9mm SSB testing.

Cheers, Lew


#9

Lew thanks for the information. I have the round in my collection - I just never have liked reproducing pictures of rounds that I thought might be fake. Guess it might be real.

I didn’t know Rob Roy. I did have a friend at Colt and got the Israeli-headstamped rounds from him with a month or so of the date on their headstamps. Amazing. Israel must have sent the cases by air. I think they were loaded at Colt or by whoever was doing the loading for Colt, and I still had them very, very soon after the cases were made. All my others I picked up over the years from one source or another.

I wish I had a better selection of them, but guess I should be happy to have the ones that I have. I wonder if there were as many .45s as there were 9mms? I have only the two pictured, plus two “bullets” that obviously were intended for dummy rounds, as they wouldn’t take any projectiles inside of them. I have two similar 9mm dummies, shown in the picture.

John M.


#10

This topic got me motivated and I went into some material I had not sorted for the collection and added 15 more SSBs to the items I already had. Most of them I have added to the website (gigconceptsinc.com/Colt-SSB.html). I would appreciate those who also have 9mm SSB to look over the items I have listed and post any that I have missed.

I was suprised at the number of variations in the individual projectiles in a fairly small sample.

It is clear that there were a lot of variations tested, and that there were collectors with connections who were able to get examples of many of these subtle variations. Makes me realize that when I see a single experimental 9mmP there were probably 20 or 30 or more other variations tested that never see the light of day!