12,7x44 question

Hi here I have three cases I bought as 12,7x44
I have no idea if this is the thrut or not.
But also I like to get some information on the headstamps.
Who is Widforss??


What is the logo on this one?

And the last one
I cannot read this one completely but it looks like Peterson import but the rest I cannot decipher.

Also a side view of the cases


Thanks for all input!!

The logo of the second is that of Oberschlesische AG zur Herstellung von Lignose, later known as Lignose AG. Lignose in modern terms is a “proprietary” name for sawdust, which they originally tried to use instead of Kieselgur in their Dynamite clone.

All millitary was rimfire!
And most all civilian was centerfire.

All the measurements on the designs are in “Linie” (0.10 inch, ) same as Russian Imperial Inch System.

Doc AV

The Widforss AB Sporting goods business of Stockholm, Sweden has been in existance in one form of another since 1729. It is believed that the business started as M. U. LIND & Company.

The business originally traded in powder and spices but was expanded during the 1800’s to trade in weapons, accessories and clothing. It is believed that in 1870 it was taken over by Mauritz Widforss who was a Stockholm Gunmaker known of at least to 1924. It is still operating in 2019 as Mauritz Widforss Stockholm AB.

Sometime during the late-19th to early 20th centuries they had ammunition produced for them with their own name in the hs. This was quite common practise for Scandinavian shooting/hunting businesses around the time and most of the cases/ammunition came from Germany.

The ‘WIDFORSS’ hs is known on the following:

"WIDFORSS * 12M * " on 12x44R Remington (SC7)

“WIDFORSS IMPORT” on 12x44R Remington (SC7) & 10.15x61R Jarmann (La No4 = SC16).

PER.K.PETERSON is believed to have been a Swedish importer of Guns and Ammunition around the 1900 period. This “Peterson” is not to be confused with Axel Jacob Petersson who was one of the co-designers of the Krag-Petersson Rifle.

A “PER.K.PETERSON IMPORT” hs is known on sporting loadings of the 10.15x61R Jarmann (La No4 = SC16) and 12.7x44R (SC6 and SC7).

There is a similar “P.P.i.K + GE” hs on 11.7x46R Danish Remington (SC33)
which represents: “Paul Paulsen”. There is also a "P P * " (on 11.7x46R Danish Remington) which are most likely to represent “Paul Paulsen”.

A “Prima Import P.K. P.E.” on 6.5x55 (SC64) could also represent either “P.Peterson” or less likely “Paul Paulsen”

No the Norwegians was under Danish opression so they used Danish units.

1 Inch = 26,15mm (Normally = 12 lines but the Norwegians switched to decimal lines during the 1830’s mostly for precision work)
Line (Normal 1:12) = 2,179mm
Line (Decimal) = 2,615mm
Scruppel (Normal 1:12) = 0,182mm
Scruppel (Decimal) = 0,2615mm

1 inch = 12 lines = 144 scruppels

Kvintin = 3,906 gram

I have a 12.7x44R cartridge bearing the headstamp of A. Andresen of Tromsoe. I’ve always liked to imagine his customers as being colorful arctic hunters of large aquatic and semi-aquatic mammals. Jack

Jack - fun fact, Andresen opened in 1870 and still operates, making it Norway’s oldest gunstore, and Tromsø’s oldest store.

https://www.vapenandresen.no

Ole

From your Kvintin number and the figures in the drawing shared by you, it could be the Norwegian pound was very close to 0.500 kg. Is that correct?
In this case bullet weight according to the drawing would be 22.85 g and cartridge weight 35.94 g.

Hi all,
Thank you all very much for the information you gave.
Since this is way out of my field I know little to nothing about these.
I did get a couple other headstamps and will place some pictures of them also.
Are the Swedish ones common??
Or are these hard to find??

Again thanks!!

Again, my ASSumption…that only the Russian system used
“Linie”.
That puts a different complexion onthe design.
With this new to me Info, I can redesign the projectile with Metric specs. for making a Mould Cherry.
Thank goodness that by the 1890s, all these quirky measurement systems were converting to Metric, probably under the Influence of German, Austrian, Swiss and French Manufacturing ( in the Ordnance field).

Doc AV

Astrid, as you sure know the “line” was connected to the inch (10 lines = 1 inch).
While the Russians overcame it after the Czar was gone only one other country stayed back…

A few, Actually…but most Inch countries used 100ths (USA) or Thousandths ( British Commonwealth) although us colonials changed to Metric ( Money and Measures) by the 1970s…you are right, only one left!!!
Doc AV

Polman , that “Oberschlesische AG” one you have is one of the rarest one to get. I know of nearly 80 different hs variations for the 12/12.7x44R CF case types. Some of the Swedish are rare - that “PER.K.PETERSON IMPORT” of yours is also hard to find. There are many more Norwegian hs but remember most of all of these were made in Germany, with a only few variations made in the USA, Austria & Czechoslovakia.

Looking forward to seeing any others you have…

For interests sake - here is a photo of Andresen’s Vaabenforretning that Morton graciously sent me:

Hi,
Here are the other headstamps I have.

The light colour one on the picture with side view is a steel case.

Who is SA ?
Who is TNGA??

I hope all pictures are clear enough to see.
Regards René

The inch system (“Viennese system”) was used for military arms measurement into the 1870s in the Hapsburg empire. Their inch was about 22 m/m, and subdivided into 12 lines, which were in turn subdivided into 12 points. Moetz in his vol. 1 has a table of conversion to the metric system. The 14 m/m Waenzl was denominated in the Viennese system as six and a third lines. Jack

There’s some good hs in that group René ! Those two hs you mention are the hardest to get from this group.

SA = SOCIETE ANONYME POUR LE FABRICATION DES CARTOUCHES & PROJECTILE at Anderlecht, Brussels, Belgium was founded in 1882 from the old Charles Fusnot company. Also generally known as Cartoucherie d’Anderlecht, it operated under a variety of company names until 1914 but did not survive WW1.

A wide variety of hs styles were used which reflect the company titles, including:

“A” represents “Anderlecht” on small caliber cases, mainly IP CF or RF
“S.A” represents “Societe Anonyme des Cartoucheries” was adopted in 1890.
“C.A” represents “Cartoucherie Anderlecht” was adopted in 1893.
“SCB” represents “Societe Anonyme des Cartoucheries, Bruxelles” from 1895
“Ste ANONYME BRUXELLES” represents “Societe Anonyme des Cartoucheries, Anderlecht, Bruxelles”

there have been discussions on these companies in this forum before!

That “A T N G” hs is still unknown but likely to be “A.T.N.” of G ? I would like to hear if anyone has idea’s on this ?

Hi,

Thank you very much for the great information you provided!!

SA is what I thought before but wanted to be sure.
I know the company from shotshells, which is my field.

Regards René