12.7x99 Egyptian hs ID


#1

Joe (xjda68) kindly provided me with these images and the permission to use them here.
We been discussing the origin and possible manufacturer of this 12.7x99 round.
As per the hs it was made in 1977 (unless it is Iran then we would look at 1997-1998). If I happened to missinterpret the hs and had it upside down then the year would be 1988 resp. Iranian 2008-2009. Maybe a better educated Arab/Farsi reader can clarify?
The primer looks much like the large “Soviet” design as used in 12.7x108.

Can anybody identify the manufacturer and the exact load type (should be an AP variant to what I understood)?
Any advise is welcome.

EIDT: changed thread name to reflect the ID


#2

Definitely Egyptian, either 1977 or 1988. The other side is an abbreviation for “.50 cal.”


#3

APIT, it is reasonably considered and yes, 12.7 Russian primer. Egyptian lineage, at least the source of exportation to the US. Assumed to be Egyptian since.


#4

Thank you guys!
Are any other Egyptian hs and loads known/documented?


#5

Alex,

Ron Fuchs in his .50 Cal. BMG Cartridge book, lists but does not show Egyptian .50 BMG with Arabic headstamps (ball, API, APIT); cartridges with the headstamp " Vᴧ %0◦ " (API, APIT, Incendiary) & Glen G. Green of PA (Pennsylvania?) contract cases, HS = " GGG 83 .50 "

Brian


#6

Brian, thank you for reminding me of Ron Fuchs’s work. As per Ron these were made by Kynoch!


#7

A Light just appeared in my brain as I looked at the above responses… VV (or ^^) are Arabic Digits (77 or 88) and the % 0 . is “Hundredths 5 0” or .50 cal (50/100 inch); using the Arabic digits for 5 and 0 ( 0 and .) The “percent” sign is taken from Latin usage(Roman ) and whilst I don’t know if it was used by the ancient (ie, Middle ages) Arabs, it certainly is used today.

Various Latin abbreviations were developed during the Early Renaissance Period, as Mathematics and Accountancy was developing, especially with the adoption of the “Indo-Arabic Numbering system” and the use of the “0” (Zero or Cipher (Zifr in Arabic, meaning “nothing”). Ancient Roman Numeration did not have the Zero concept, and this hindered rapid calculation, both in Financial matters such as Interest, and in General (addition, subtraction, and Multiplication. The I,II,V and X system was laborious to operate.

The US system of the Hash (#) meaning “number of” comes from the 14th Century, and is a contraction of the abbreviation of “numero” (nr) in Medieval script. The Percentum sign has a similar origin (%), as do the Plus, Minus and Multipy and Divide signs. Given the Arabic and Italian/Latin interaction in the Middle ages in places such as Spain and southern Italy, and the Levant, there was a cross-cultural development of all these items necessary for efficient Trading, Monetary exchange, and scientific learning.

Algebra “Al gibr” Pebbles Calculus (Lat.) Calculations using Pebbles as counters. ( also “Gibr al Tarik” ==Gibraltar ( “Tarik’s Pebble” some Pebble!!!) also the Australian Slang and Desert Name…Gibber ( Gibber Desert) from the Afghan “stone or stoney”).
Alchemy Al Chem The Nature of metals and natural things Chemistry. The vast number of Arabic origin words and usages from the Renaissance period is astounding.

Doc AV


#8

Uh…thank you?


#9

My Arabic teacher was Moroccan and he explained Gibraltar on the other side of the strait as being derived from Jebel at-Tariq,Tariq’s mountain. In view of what it is this describes it well.
Hans


#10

Quite correct, Tariq’s Mountain…Jebel (Moroccan Arabic) and Gibr ( “Arabian” Arabic) are the same general meaning. Jebel is more commonly used due to French Influence in North Africa ( frenchifcation of Arabic Pronunciation and spelling.)

Doc AV


#11

All this history, in a headstamp.


#12

I have the ball, API and APIT variants in my collection:

Ball

API

APIT


#13

Thank you twoaz!
Seeing this I wonder now what color code systems the Egyptians did use since typical WAPA calibers had the repsective markings but what about NATO calibers then? Seems there a different pattern was applied.
Anybody with an insight into Egyptian ordnance marking practices?


#14

Alex, the colour code contemporary to these cartridges was WAPA for 7.62x39, 12.7x108 and 14.5x114, and NATO for 7.9x57 and .50. The use of white paint found in API and API-T has the same meaning as silver.


#15

Fede, thanks!
So they did like the Chinese with replacing silver against white.


#16

Interesting that they’re all the same date.


#17

When made by Kynoch as indicated by Ron Fuchs one could assume it to be from one contract wich was not repeatedly given to the Kynoch then?


#18

[quote=“DocAV”]Quite correct, Tariq’s Mountain…Jebel (Moroccan Arabic) and Gibr ( “Arabian” Arabic) are the same general meaning. Jebel is more commonly used due to French Influence in North Africa ( frenchifcation of Arabic Pronunciation and spelling.)

Doc AV[/quote]
Cannot agree with you:

  1. He studied in Ar-Riadh and taught us Saudi Arabic (proven valid on my travels)
  2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar
    Sorry for picking off topic, I don’t want the forum ring hollow.

Hans


#19

It appears that the tip colors are sprayed on instead of dipped as most tip color are. I only know of Egypt and North Korea using the spray method. Perhaps the cases were made elsewhere and the complete cartridges loaded in Egypt?
This appears to have been done before with the steel cased 12.7x108mm and 7.62x39mm made in Poland but loaded in Egypt…

AKMS


#20

Vlad, several countries sprayed the markings. I can not name them all but it includes Czechoslovakia and several others. And the Egypt color markings on their steel cased 12.7x108 do look pretty much identical to the Czechoslovak ones.
Also we should keep in mind that there are no Polish steel cased 12.7x108 documented by now and the brass cased ones we know are from 1954-1955 (and maybe some more from the 1950s).