12 mm Norwegian and Swedish Rimfires

following the topic on the 6,5x55, I wonder nearly the same questions about next cartridges:
-the 12x41RF is called 12 mm swedish Model 1867

-the 12x29 RF is called 12mm norwegian lund carbine Model 1869

-the 12x44 RF is called 12 mm norvegian Model 1871


As norway adopted a carbine’s cartridge in 1869, I believe that at that time they already had a rifle’s cartridge. But the 12x44RF was adopted two years later. Did they had adopted the 12x42RF in 1867 like the swedishs?

May as well add this 17mm Lund to help complete the series.
17 lund hs 17 lund oa

Laurent: It’s the same story over again. The 12mm Remington cartridge was also designed by a joint commission. The norwegian and swedish cartridges were interchangeable, but used different bullets. In 1871 Norway adopted a new improved bullet and lengthened the case to 44mm.

Thank you,
Another French collector point out to me that there was a very interesting article wrote by Vidar Andresen in the IAA’s journal number 400, which answered all my questions!


pn6-024

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I would like to add something to this. There is no known official drawing of the Swedish 4-line cartridge (12 mm). However, over time numerous specimens have been measured, and they all have a case length of about 41 mm, whereas the Norwegian version has a case length of about 42 mm. I have suggested to the ECRA Caliber Data Viewer that the Swedish 1867 cartridge should be called 12x41 instead of 12x42. That has been accepted, so I suggest we now use 12x41 for the Swedish 1867 and 12x42 for the Norwegian 1867.

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I am glad this post was started, and I have a related question… or a couple.

About 10 years ago I picked up an 1866 [patent date] Remington Rolling Block, with the year of production 1867, converted from Rimfire to Centerfire, with Express sights.

I do not remember which what country it came from, Sweden or Norway, and I have no notes, as it was a “I love Rolling Blocks, I will take it!” purchase, figuring I could always rechamber or rebarrel if I was going to shoot it. There are no state/country proofs.

I will also admit that, since the day I got it, I have yet to slug the bore, or to make a chamber cast- yes, bad on me- I really do need to order some Cerrosafe for the chamber cast… .

It has a Hexagon bore, approximately 12.54mm/.494" grooves (corners?), and 11.59mm/.457" across the flats. Did one or both countries use this bore type?

Looking at the dates, and the bore at the muzzle, what Rimfire cartridge would you guess it was, and which Centerfire cartridge would you guess it was rechambered for? I would like to end up with one of each, eventually.

Serial Number:


Model/Production Date:

Top Tang Patent 1866:

Muzzle:

Tens of thousands of rolling blocks were rebuilt into huntingrifles in Sweden and Norway, and in many different calibers and configurations. You need to do a chamber cast to find out what cartridge it fires. BTW, you’ll find a lot of different civillian barrels on these conversions.

Yes, I did mention that I need to make a chamber cast AND slug the bore.

I just disassembled a dud 16 ga slug to slug the bore, and I ordered more Cerrosafe- I have no idea what happened to teh roughly 4 POUNDS of Cerrosafe I have been using for the past 20 or so years!

Interesting article!

Hi Vidar

41.16 mm (left) and 41,46 mm (right)

Are these cartridges Swedish and Norwegian or both Swedish?

Thanks

Oscar

12x41_42

Hi Oscar
If you look at the drawing shown earlier in this thread you will see the Norwegian M1867 12x42 mm cartridge. The total length of this cartridge is 53.9 mm and the case length is 41.72 mm before crimping. The total length of my Swedish 12 mm M1867 is 51.15 mm. The case length of my Swedish 12 mm is 41.12 mm. Your two specimens look like Swedish rounds to me. Measure their total length. An original Norwegian 12 mm M1867 is extremely rare, but there is a problem. Empty primed Norwegian copper cases were at one time sold as surplus, and these were probably both 42 and 44 mm lengths. These were then loaded in gun shops or by individuals, and both case lengths loaded with various bullets have turned up, causing confusion. Swedish 12 mm cartridges are not too rare. There is no known official drawing with all dimensions, of the Swedish cartridge.

Total length for the cartridges: 51.92mm (left) and 51,46 mm (right) .

One more question, this on the 12x44 RF Norwegian Model 1871: this cartridge would chamber in a regular M.1867 Rifle or the length of the chamber were modified as well to admit the new cartridge length?

Thanks again for the information.

Hello, could you tell me where to find this picture? Thank you

Hi Oscar
That’s a good question. It has always been stated that the 12x44 mm cartridge was designed so it would fit the chamber of the existing 12x42 rifle chambers. I have never tried this with actual rifles and cartridges, but hopefully I’ll be able to do that when our Armed Forces Museum in Oslo opens again. Due to the slightly different trajectory of the 12x44 cartridge, the rear sights had to be modified. When this was carried out it would have been a small task to enlarge the chambers at the same time, although nothing about this has ever been mentioned.

Hi
theses draws coming from the factory SFM in France (Issy les Moulineaux).
Certainly for build for one customer.
Bsrg, Dan


Bsrg, Dan

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The picture of the cartridges? I took it. If you need it feel free to email me: oportaba@gmail.com

Thank you

Thank you for the pictures, I have these pictures can be viewed from that website

Hi Dan
Thanks for posting these images. These are commerical bullets for the centerfire version of the Norwegian 12x44 rimfire, which was widely used in both Norway and Sweden. In Sweden the CF was called 12.7 mm, whereas in Norway it was most often called 12 mm. The markings on the bullets are for Nordiska Metallverken Aktiebolaget (N.M.A.B.). This Swedish factory merged with Svenska Metallverken (SM) in 1912. Here is part of a page from the 1913 SM catalog that shows two of their 12.7 mm bullets. The two other bullets, which were made by NMAB, were for the dealer Paul Berghaus in Gothenburg, Sweden. Here is their 1901 catalog and an excerpt mentioning their 12.7 mm bullet manufactured by NMAB and marked with the letter S. What KA and KB stand for, I don’t know, but could be Kula (bullet) A and B.

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Hi Vidar,
thanks for theses datas unknowing for me.
I have not the case with theses bullets,
perhaps destroyed by the massive flow in 1910 in Paris.

Bsrg, Dan

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