12mm & 9mm French Thick Rim


#1

I have put together a little collection of 12mm & 9mm Perrin cartridges.

I was wondering what the correct terms would be for the different primer types shown.

Anyone know who made any of these particular ones?

Also are there any good reference books on Perrins, is there any headstamp/variation list?


#2

I am positive that the best reference on these, and pinfires is one written by some guy named Newcomer. Look for it in a few years, it will be an excellent one!

Aaron is really doing some great research on this little explored field, and I look forward to learning more as he solves the numerous puzzles which few have really looked at before.


#3

Aaron: only one third-hand unguaranteed ID is that the inside-primed copper case jobbies were produced by Gaupillat. This version of the IP concept, with a vertical anvil between the priming compound and the base of the bullet may be the Perrin type. It’s my impression that this variant is the one supplied to the contesting parties in the American Civil War, and I wonder if you might know if battlefield recoveries provide any confirmation on this point. The whole lot is neat! Jack


#4

Hello Aaron,

                 Only the first seven 12 mm and the first 9 mm were made for Perrin revolvers. These were produced under the British Patent No. 2263 dated october 5, 1859 assigned to W. E. Newton (Perrin & Delmas agent).

                Specimens 8 and 9 were produced by Bachmann. These also exist with B headstamp.

                Numbers 13, 16, 17, 22 and 23 were produced by Eley and Kynoch.

                The last 9 mm is the so-called "10 mm Gaupillat" wich is in fact a variation of the 9 mm Devisme. It was produced by Manufacture des Bruyères de Sévres & du Bas-Medon. Boxes were marked "Nombre 25 Cartouches pour Revolvers à percussion centrale calibre 10 m/m de Gaupillat & Cie Brevtes S.G.D.G. Dépôt 50, Rúe Rainbuteau". This variation is called "Model 1870" because it was fabricated according to French Patent No. 90.713 granted to Gaupillat & Cie and dated july 20, 1870.

               You should contact Amand Leveau who is a great reseacher of french patented cartridges.

#5

OKkk So then would you say that all of these could/should be categorized under “French Thick Rim” or just “French CF Revolver” or what?

And then here is what I have come up with different classifications… also what database do these numbers look like they are from? I found these in a PDF called Klasificētās munīcijas saraksts (Classified Munitions List)

[color=red]12x32 R Long Galand [/color][color=blue](12 mm R Galand a grenaille), [/color] [color=green]12x32 R Galand[/color]

[color=red]12x15 R Perrin [/color][color=blue](.44 Perin. 12 mm French Thick Rim), [/color] [color=green]SAA 7280. EB 175.[/color]

[color=red]12x15,5 R French Revolver CF [/color][color=blue](12 mm French, Revolver CF), [/color] [color=green]12 mm Revolver[/color]

[color=red]12x16 R Galand [/color][color=blue](12 mm French Thick Rim, French “Welt Rim”), [/color] [color=green]SAA 7280A. EB 175.[/color]

[color=red]12x13 Raphael [/color][color=blue](11 mm Raphael. 12 mm Raphael Revolver CF), [/color] [color=green]12 mm Pildault & Cordier. SAA 7260. EB 176.[/color]

[color=red]11,6x14,5 R Galand Russian Navy [/color]color=blue[/color]

[color=red]11x14 R Revolver Devisme [/color][color=blue](12x14 R Devisme), [/color] [color=green]11 mm Devisme, Revolver Devisime. SAA 7270. EB 161.[/color]

[color=red]11x14,8 R Devisme [/color][color=blue](11 mm Galand- Devisme), [/color] [color=green]11 mm Revolver Devisme, [/color]

[color=red]10x14 R Gaupillat [/color][color=blue](10 mm Revolver CF), [/color] [color=green]EB 145A.[/color]

[color=red]9 mm Galand [/color][color=blue](French Thick Rim, Galand Revolver, Perrin), [/color] [color=green]9 mm French “Welt Rim”, French Rim. SAA 4830. EB 121.[/color]

[color=red]9x22 R Belgian Nagant [/color][color=blue](9 mm Galand Revolver, Nagant Pistole), [/color] [color=green]9,6x22 Bachmann. 9 mm Belgian Nagant M 1878, Pistolet & Revolver 99, Belgische Nagant Pistole, Bachmann. 9,6x22 Bachmann. SAA 5085. EB 136.[/color]

[color=red]9x15 R Devisme [/color][color=blue](9 mm Devisme Revolver, Pottet), [/color] [color=green]9x15 R. 9x14 R Devisme. EB 119. SAA 4835[/color]

[color=red]7x20 R French Revolver CF Long case,[/color]

[color=red]7x15 R French Revolver CF [/color][color=blue](7 mm French, Revolver), [/color] [color=green]7 mm Lotz revolver. 7x13 R Franz. 7x16R Franz. 7x16 Franz 7,5x16,2 Franz. DWM 297. SAA 1930. EB 042.[/color]

[color=red]7x14 R Chaudun & Deriviere [/color][color=blue](7 mm FrenchRim, French Thick Rim), [/color] [color=green]SAA 1875. EB 043.[/color]

[color=red]7x14,6 R Gunther Sarbacane Thin base [/color][color=blue](7 mm Sarbacane Thin base), [/color] [color=green]7x14,6 R SFM Sarbacane Thick Rim. 7x14,5 R Canne. 7x15 R Reduced Pattay-Lee. 6,8x14,6 R. SAA 0950.[/color]

[color=red]7x11,7 R Galand Short case [/color][color=blue](7 mm FrenchRim, French Thick Rim), [/color] [color=green]SAA 1875. EB 043.[/color]

[color=red]7x9 R Pieper [/color][color=blue](7 mm Thick Rim, Pieper. 7x9 R French Rim),[/color]

Can any of these be deleted from the list, as being related to a totally different type of cartridge?


#6

and then based on those, and Fede’s wonderfully insightful info

1-7: [color=red]12x15 R Perrin [/color][color=blue](.44 Perin. 12 mm French Thick Rim), [/color] [color=green]SAA 7280. EB 175.[/color]

8-9: [color=red]11,6x14,5 R Galand Russian Navy [/color]color=blue[/color]

10:
11:
12:
13:
14:

15: [color=red]9 mm Galand [/color][color=blue](French Thick Rim, Galand Revolver, Perrin), [/color] [color=green]9 mm French “Welt Rim”, French Rim. SAA 4830. EB 121.[/color]

16:
17:
18:
19:
20:
21:
22:
23:

24: [color=red]10x14 R Gaupillat [/color][color=blue](10 mm Revolver CF), [/color] [color=green]EB 145A.[/color]


#7

To sort between between perrin and galand ctges some advanced collectors have set a rule :
Perrin ctges have a covered primer which is magnetic
Galand ctges have a visible primer which is non magnetic.

This rule is ok for most of the samples you can find but in fact is not 100% true.

JP