13,2x96 Hothckiss Short


#1

Hello

please educate me on this round

as I understand, it was developed in around 1935 by shortening 13,2x99 Hothckiss M30 cases to avoid confusion with .50 BMG / 12.7x99 ammo which is dimensionally similar.

The questions are:

  1. Was the “short” round adopted by France or any other military (which, if any)?

  2. what guns fired this round (Hotchkiss HMG’s? FN Brownings? any others?)

  3. where i can get a dummy/deactivated sample for my humble collection? From what I see, the 13,2x99 is not that rare, but 13,2x96 appears to be much harder to get…

thanks!


#2

no one knows anything? that’s a pity ;(


#3

[quote=“mpopenker”]Hello

please educate me on this round

as I understand, it was developed in around 1935 by shortening 13,2x99 Hothckiss M30 cases to avoid confusion with .50 BMG / 12.7x99 ammo which is dimensionally similar.

The questions are:

  1. Was the “short” round adopted by France or any other military (which, if any)?
    [color=#FF0000]Yes. French Army for sure[/color]
  2. what guns fired this round (Hotchkiss HMG’s? FN Brownings? any others?)
    [color=#FF0000]Hotchkiss HMG’s for sure[/color]
  3. where i can get a dummy/deactivated sample for my humble collection? From what I see, the 13,2x99 is not that rare, but 13,2x96 appears to be much harder to get…
    [color=#FF0000]are you going to the swiss meeting in september ?[/color]
    thanks![/quote]
    [color=#FF0000]Have you old russian (or uncommon) catalogues or books about shotshells ??
    JP[/color]

#4

JP, thanks for answers

here some more questions: did the ‘Short’ Hotchkiss round replace the long one in French service? Were the guns, delivered prior to adoption of the ‘short’ round, rebarreled to use it?

as for visiting Switzerland - no, unfortunately i will not. I’m not an IAA member (cartridge collecting is a side-project for my main hobby, small arms historical research), and traveling from Russia to Switzerland is quite expensive (at least by local standards).

speaking on shotshells, i have some Russian books on hunting and shotgun, but nothing particular about shotshells

if you’re interesting in anything special, please contact me off-board (PM or email) and I’ll see what can be found locally


#5

Extract of a textbook of the gunsmith of the French Navy (on 1938 < < on 1946)





#6

Most interesting information on a WATERCOOLED Browning in 13.2 for the French Navy.

Thanks,

JF


#7

Perhaps I have not very well understood, but I thought the question were about the short 13.2 mm

When you show all the documentaion above does it mean all the weapons were automatically converted to the short 13.2 mm ?

I am doubting because I saw in a Navy base in 1980 the MG and the long 13.2 mm ctges
(It was in a Navy training base I agree)

For the little story I can tell you they were still shooting 2 cm flack and MG151/20!!
I was able to pick up some German MG151/20 rounds very funny (grey green body, aluminium tip with an arrow. They were training rounds (shooting ctges but no explosive inside) and I miss not to have taken more of them because I never saw the same ones after)

JP


#8

First of all ,I want to specify that there is no relation between a. 50 BWG and a 13.2 x 99 Hotchkiss ctg case ! The first Hotchkiss researches for a heavy machine gun ctg started early 1901 in relation with S.F.M. and the original ctg was more likely a scaled up 7.92 than any american one. Main improvements were carried out after WWI with the adoption of a variation of the 13 mm Tankgewehr ball. The final tests were ended early 1925.
Why two case lengh ?
After the adoption by the french Navy of the 13.2x99 mle 1930 , once noticed that barrels had a too short life . A competition between the three ammunition factories in charge of the production started ; each studying the possible improvements . It was Cartoucherie de Valence , Manufacture du Haut Rhin and Société Française des Munitions. A detailed report of each improvement of the three factories will be out of subject and very long but one was effectively a better improvement. Its specificity was the adoption of a large groove in the medium , cylindric part of the ball. But , due to the position of the groove, it was for reasons of manufacture impossible to crimp easily the case neck. The only solution was to shorten the case neck and crimp it in the upper part of the ball groove. The case lengh was then shortened of 3 mm, the new cartridge was adopted as 13.2x96 mle 1935. Groove and short case are concomitant.
Note that the two ctg length can be used in the same barrels and that the two case length continued to be manufactured in the different manufactures, even after 1935.
The reduction of the case lengh is for manufacture reasons and NOT a question of distinction with the .50BWG case. In the 1930’s , the Hotchkiss 13.2 had a world wider extension than the .50 BWG and could be used in Hotchkiss MG , Air cool and water cool Browning MG , Breda and Scotti MG , Japanese Hotchkiss MG
I hope my explanation will bring light on the reason of the two case lengh; and if an editor is interested in the publication of a complete study on the 13.2 Hotchkiss caliber, Arms and ammunitions all over the world , the first part on French production is ready


#9

phil12, that’s an excellent info!

great many thanks!