13 x 92SR T-Gewehr


#1

I got a 13x92SR T-Gewehr round from ebay, with a few other common rounds for


#2

Yes, the P is for POLTE Magdeburg, which was the only maker of this ammo (at least for the brass cased ones).

Philippe


#3

hi Gareth,
another good shot!
your 15mm Besa bullet is running to you.
Ciao!


#4

You STOLE that specimen, Falcon! Good on ya!

.


#5

Nice find, Falcon; I’ve got two rounds (live and cutaway) headstamped the same way, only “7 18”.


#6

I think mine was dismantled, and never fired, as it has an unstruck primer (someone has tried to set it off with a spring punch, leaving a few small blemishes). The neck is also very slightly bent from deactivation. But still, for


#7

Polte was the only German WW I maker of the ammo, but after WW I several other makers supplied quantites untill the early 1930s.

Sweden (M1921 AT Rifle…headstamps typical of Swedish ammo (Crown,dates);

Switzerland: Thun, contracts for Nationalist China (Typical Swiss HS layout, “T” (Thun Federal factory);

FN, Herstal: Contracts for Nationalist China, 1920s, and probaly for Poland, Baltic States, and maybe even Bolshevik Russia:

Soviet Union: May have acquired(see FN above) and made some of their own, for trials of a heavy Maxim and other HMG designs in 13x92 Calibre.(1920s);Headstamps unknown.

Polte (and Mauser) developed, and put into production the gun and ammunition in what was for WW I, record time ( requirement November 1917, prototypes ready for testing early 1918, first Issue ammo produced A[pril 1918, ceased November 1918, Rifles produced over 15,000 recorded, Rarest ammo of monthly production ( April—all used up, November (only 10 days production) either post-war destroyed or used by Poland (Russo-Polish War) or otherwise disposed of.
Most cartridges of the P markings are either battlefield souvenirs or outright captures. The Chinese contract examples are noted, but rare. The Swedish examples are Museum pieces.( even though Sweden built its own M21 AT rifles at CarlGustafs Gevarfabrik.)

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#8

Doc–You say the November 1918 rounds were all used up.

I have the following loaded round:

13 x 92 SR MAUSER ANTI-TANK, headstamp 11 18 P T67 with a 770 gr. PT-FMJ GM bullet with a brass case FL-CU primer

Is this the one you are refering to?


#9

I said the April date(4-18) was probably all used up, the November (11-18) dates would be Rare, probably all used, or destroyed in the Post-war demilitarisation; obviously your example survived (either because it was souvenired in the last week of the war or shortly after, or came from some “pickup” by an Allied Military Commission team doing the rounds of all the German factories in the 1919 -1920 period.
In any case, a good find, as they say “they just ain’t making them any more”.

regards, Doc AV
AV ballistics.


#10

[quote=“Ron Merchant”]Doc–You say the November 1918 rounds were all used up.

I have the following loaded round:

13 x 92 SR MAUSER ANTI-TANK, headstamp 11 18 P T67 with a 770 gr. PT-FMJ GM bullet with a brass case FL-CU primer

Is this the one you are referring to?[/quote]

Ron
They must not be all that rare, as the one I have matches yours (and as new as I am, if I have one “it ain’t rare” grin)


#11

Here in Germany the 11-18 is a rather common one, there are even theories about a post 1918-production related to restrictions of the Versailles treaty.


#12

If anyone likes these T-Gewehr and wants to have their breath momentarily taken away, if you are ever in Brussells, Belgium, go to the military Museum. Forget what street it is on, but I recall a real parkway with a big arch at the end, where the museum is. The columns in the main hall are ringed with these huge-Mauser looking rifles. Its a great museum for those who like uniforms, holsters, etc. anyway, but they must have dozens of those T-guns. Impressive!


#13

Dear EOD
Accortding to Dolf Goldsmith, in his monumental work on Maxim Guns, the T1918 and the TuF MG projects were all prohibited by the Versailles treaty rules…even to the extent that all the parts for the TuF gun already manufactured were to be destroyed, as well as all the ammunition… It could be that Polte continued making the ammo with “11-18” dates as long as it could,( The Treaty was not operative till mid 1919) but, as a lot of the information regarding the 1918-1920s period is scarce or entirely lacking, who knows for sure?

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#14

I have seen a document dated March 1921 in the National Archives concerning a British attempt to get hold of a T.u.F. MG. (in file AIR 5/217)

This states that of the 4,200 guns ordered, 24 were known to have been completed by Maschinen-Fabrik Augsberg-Nurnberg and issued in batches of three to eight different units. Only nine guns had been discovered by December 1920.

The document stated that the view of the Military Committee of Versailles was that the T.u.F. was a terrestrial weapon used by land fores and should therefore be destroyed. But the British argued that “further enquiries have almost conclusively shown that the gun was to be used in aircraft” and could accordingly be seized by the Commission of Control. However, the only evidence quoted in support of this view was that the water jacket could be removed and replaced by air cooling, and that the “F” in T.u.F. stood for “Flieger” so it referred to aircraft.

It read to me like they were clutching at straws, but possibly this was the source of the rumour that the name of the gun stood for what it was supposed to be fitted to, rather than to the targets it was expected to engage. Anyway, it seems that they lost the argument as I know of no mention of a T.u.F. ever arriving in the UK.


#15

Thanks Tony W., about the British 1920s involvement with the TuF MG, but the Russians (ie, Bolsheviks) certainly did get hold of some and the ammunition, as they did several prototypes of both Ground and Aircraft guns in the early 1920s (from Chinn, “the Machine Gun” and also Goldsmith) and probably fielded them ( original German guns) during their own Civil War and during the Russo-Polish War; the Poles fielded several (captured)German A7V tanks during this war, so the Russians having got hold of TuFs would not be beyond possibility.(even if in small numbers.)

An interesting area of research.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#16

The name for this round is 13 x 92R Tank und Flieger.

It became this name on Okt. 29th 1918. The German headquarter gave a order to build also a machinegun in the same calibre as the


#17

Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
Beside that the war between Russia and Germany ceased in 1917 what I think reduced the chance of Russia getting hold of such weapons pretty much.
Any ideas?

Looking at Chinn’s notes on the two Russian ShVAK weapons (12.7/20mm, being the same gun) it becomes very evident that the available information at that time was rather little an lead mainly by estimates.

Not related to this it may be of interest that Russia captured in 1941 the first German 7.92mm AT rifle “PzB 39” together with the cartridge “Patrone 318”. It got copied right away and several hundred AT rifles were made by the Russians but later on cancelled when it turned out that the Russian copies had a life time of about 40 rounds.


#18

[quote=“EOD”]Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
Beside that the war between Russia and Germany ceased in 1917 what I think reduced the chance of Russia getting hold of such weapons pretty much.
Any ideas?

Looking at Chinn’s notes on the two Russian ShVAK weapons (12.7/20mm, being the same gun) it becomes very evident that the available information at that time was rather little an lead mainly by estimates.

Not related to this it may be of interest that Russia captured in 1941 the first German 7.92mm AT rifle “PzB 39” together with the cartridge “Patrone 318”. It got copied right away and several hundred AT rifles were made by the Russians but later on cancelled when it turned out that the Russian copies had a life time of about 40 rounds.[/quote]

Could it be, the technology came in 1927 to Russia by testing the new developments in Lipetz
As the German tanks tested the new vehicles in Kazan.

Rgds,
Dutch


#19

[quote=“EOD”]Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
[/quote]

Alex,
have a look at
"Bolotin - Soviet Small Arms and Ammunition" and
"Shirikorad - Eciclopedia of Domestic Atrillery (in Russian)".

Short & quick summary out of my memory:
Before the 14.5mm PTRD and PTRS AT-rifles were introduced into Soviet service, several experimental designs were developed in the 1920


#20

What I read was that the German rifles were not converted but copied and chambered for 12.7x108.