13 x 92SR T-Gewehr


#16

The name for this round is 13 x 92R Tank und Flieger.

It became this name on Okt. 29th 1918. The German headquarter gave a order to build also a machinegun in the same calibre as the


#17

Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
Beside that the war between Russia and Germany ceased in 1917 what I think reduced the chance of Russia getting hold of such weapons pretty much.
Any ideas?

Looking at Chinn’s notes on the two Russian ShVAK weapons (12.7/20mm, being the same gun) it becomes very evident that the available information at that time was rather little an lead mainly by estimates.

Not related to this it may be of interest that Russia captured in 1941 the first German 7.92mm AT rifle “PzB 39” together with the cartridge “Patrone 318”. It got copied right away and several hundred AT rifles were made by the Russians but later on cancelled when it turned out that the Russian copies had a life time of about 40 rounds.


#18

[quote=“EOD”]Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
Beside that the war between Russia and Germany ceased in 1917 what I think reduced the chance of Russia getting hold of such weapons pretty much.
Any ideas?

Looking at Chinn’s notes on the two Russian ShVAK weapons (12.7/20mm, being the same gun) it becomes very evident that the available information at that time was rather little an lead mainly by estimates.

Not related to this it may be of interest that Russia captured in 1941 the first German 7.92mm AT rifle “PzB 39” together with the cartridge “Patrone 318”. It got copied right away and several hundred AT rifles were made by the Russians but later on cancelled when it turned out that the Russian copies had a life time of about 40 rounds.[/quote]

Could it be, the technology came in 1927 to Russia by testing the new developments in Lipetz
As the German tanks tested the new vehicles in Kazan.

Rgds,
Dutch


#19

[quote=“EOD”]Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
[/quote]

Alex,
have a look at
"Bolotin - Soviet Small Arms and Ammunition" and
"Shirikorad - Eciclopedia of Domestic Atrillery (in Russian)".

Short & quick summary out of my memory:
Before the 14.5mm PTRD and PTRS AT-rifles were introduced into Soviet service, several experimental designs were developed in the 1920


#20

What I read was that the German rifles were not converted but copied and chambered for 12.7x108.


#21

[quote=“EOD”]Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
[/quote]

This was meant for Machine guns.


#22

[quote=“EOD”]Having studied plenty of Russian books and documents I never heard of the posession or even use of such weapons by the Russians.
Beside that the war between Russia and Germany ceased in 1917 what I think reduced the chance of Russia getting hold of such weapons pretty much.
Any ideas?[/quote]
I am equally puzzled. Given the circumstances, I find it highly improbable that any TuF went to the USSR. As far as I can tell, all were destroyed without leaving Germany. I mean, if the USA and the UK couldn’t get one…

I have discovered in the past that while Chinn is very detailed on how guns work, he is less reliable when describing the history of their use.


#23

It appears that the Russians managed to acquire at least ONE TuF, since there’s one in the “Military Historical Museum of Artillery, Sapper, and Communication Troops” in Leningrad/St. Petersburg (inventory number 063/61); this is from a book called “The Trophies of the Red Army During the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945. Volume 1: Anti-Tank Weapons-Aircraft Machine Guns-Assault Rifles”, by Tu. A. Natzvaladze, printed by the Land O’ Sun Printers, Scottsdale, AZ. They give all the applicable characteristics (weight, barrel length, etc.) and pictures, PLUS some ballistic information like muzzle velocity, so I think they must have fired it at one time. Overall, it’s basically just a lengthened/enlarged Maxim 08/15, only this one is shown on a wheeled carriage that the gunner would sit on. This book also covers a lot of the larger-calibre anti-tank rifle and cannon material that the Germans fielded or worked on at least experimentally during the 1940s, and it’s worth looking for if you have an interest in this area.

One of the ODDEST items in this book is an experimental 15mm gun/ammunition system called the “HF-15” (Hohe Fuerfolge - “High Density Rapid Fire”?) that was intended to be used as an aircraft cannon. Each cartridge contained 9 projectiles arranged in a snail-like track, with a vent from the propellant chamber both in-line with the barrel AND at the rear of the projectile track, so that the propellant gasses would both fire the projectile in line with the bore AND push the remainder up along the feeding path so that the next projectile would line up with the bore. An idea that I’d never considered, before seeing this, and I’d be curious to know how the firing tests worked out.


#24

I asked someone I know who lives in St Petersburg, and he confirms that he’s seen it in the museum. He recalls being told that it was probably handed over to the USSR by Germany during the 1920s, when the USSR and the Weimar Republic had close relations (and various other items were transferred - like a Dreyse MG), but he will check that.

So it seems that at least one TuF escaped the destruction ordered by the Allied Control Commission. I wonder if there are any others lurking in dusty corners of museums somewhere, with their significance unrecognised?

There’s an illustrated two-part article in the February and March 2007 issues of The Cartridge Researcher, the monthly bulletin of the European Cartridge Research Association. Briefly, it was invented by a Hungarian, Zettl, around 1939-40. He took his work to the Gustloff Werke in Suhl (Germany) in 1941. Guns in various calibres were tested, starting with 7.9mm, but with most emphasis on 15mm and 20mm versions (30mm was also proposed). Technical difficulties meant that development was not complete by 1945.

At the end of the war, Zettl was interviewed and made various impressive claims about the performance of the guns. At least one gun plus a batch of ammo was shipped to the USA and tested into the 1950s, where more ammunition was made.


#25

[quote=“Tony Williams”]There’s an illustrated two-part article in the February and March 2007 issues of The Cartridge Researcher, the monthly bulletin of the European Cartridge Research Association. Briefly, it was invented by a Hungarian, Zettl, around 1939-40. He took his work to the Gustloff Werke in Suhl (Germany) in 1941. Guns in various calibres were tested, starting with 7.9mm, but with most emphasis on 15mm and 20mm versions (30mm was also proposed). Technical difficulties meant that development was not complete by 1945.

At the end of the war, Zettl was interviewed and made various impressive claims about the performance of the guns. At least one gun plus a batch of ammo was shipped to the USA and tested into the 1950s, where more ammunition was made.[/quote]

Interesting, thanks :-) Did they have actual photos of the gun and ammuniiton, or line drawings? Do you recall how the feeding/firing/extraction/ejection cycle went on this thing? It’s just such a bizarre concept compared to almost everything else in small arms.


#26

I believe they were one (multi)-shot guns. You want to fire more ammo, you carry more barrels.


#27

[quote=“DocAV”]Sweden (M1921 AT Rifle…headstamps typical of Swedish ammo (Crown,dates);

Switzerland: Thun, contracts for Nationalist China (Typical Swiss HS layout, “T” (Thun Federal factory);

FN, Herstal: Contracts for Nationalist China, 1920s[/quote]

What was the Swedish rifle like? A variant of the Mauser T-Gew18?

What weapon did the Chinese acquire to fire this ammunition? When and in which quantities? Thanks!

Cheers

HANS


#28

I am very interested in the specs of the TuF MG, could you quote all the characteristics from that book? I am especially interested in dimensions, weights, rate of fire (which I have seen quoted 300/400/500 spm in various sources) capacity of the water jacket, types of mounts, ammo supply, etc. Many thanks!

Cheers

HANS


#29

Happy to help; here’s the info they give on the TuF, from page 11. The “note 23” in the upper right refers to a book called (in Russian) “Anti-tank weapons abroad”, by G. Bergfeld, M. Revkovsky, and D. Bronevesky, printed in Moscow in 1931.


#30

[quote=“SDC”]Happy to help; here’s the info they give on the TuF, from page 11. The “note 23” in the upper right refers to a book called (in Russian) “Anti-tank weapons abroad”, by G. Bergfeld, M. Revkovsky, and D. Bronevesky, printed in Moscow in 1931.

[quote]

Thanks! Interestingly, it says it used a 75-round belt or a 30-round belt in a drum; the only other belt capacity I’ve seen says 100-round belts. Still looking for the water jacket capacity.

Ah, and I found the Pansarv


#31

No problem; the accompanying text says that the 75-round belts were intended for use against tanks, while the 30-round belts in a drum were intended for use against aircraft. I think that hitting a plane with one of these would be as much a matter of luck than anything else, given the low rate of fire.


#32

Doc AV,

You said the April rounds were all used up. I have the same 13x92 SR loaded round with the P T67 4 18 headstamp. Did this one escape destruction? Or, just a lucky find? And mine was not a battlefield pickup.


#33

The Chinese (Warlords, National Army) had a long history of using large calibre (.60, .75, 1,00 Inch) Bolt action rifles, usually Locally made “Upsized” versions of existing Infantry calibre rifles) as Wall Guns/Rampart Guns. These were used, usually on a swivel mount, but sometimes on the shoulders of a couple of “Gun-Bearers” to take out opposing Artillery Pieces, as “Door-breakers” in City walls and Gates, and to generally create havoc at Long range in the Enemy’s camp.

When after WW I, several European Arms merchants went to China to sell off German Mauser Rifles etc (either captured/Booty items from France and Belgium, or “Excess to Versailles” stock from Germany itself) there were included samples of “T -Gewehr”. (Afterall, over 15,000 T-18s were built in 1918, and only a small number(relatively) went as “souvenirs” to the various Allied Nations…say 5-6 thousand. They are Not Common today, although Australia and New Zealand probably have more surviving examples than the USA, in proportion (the US used a lot as “Ammo Testers”, in the 1920s, for developing the .50 cal. cartridge.)

So it seems that a substantial number ( ?Several Thousand?) were sold to, amongst others, China, so much so that when the supplies of original German (Polte) Wartime ammo was used up, the Chinese middlemen turned to European makers for extra ammo.
FN had been making ammo in small lots for several European users, in the 1920s( Finland, Sweden, Poland, and probably Russia); it was no problem for them to make an order, probably for one of the Belgian Dealers into China, for use there. The HS seen carries the “gearwheel sun” mark, so it was a Nationalist Government Order, and would have been Substantial (1930).
The Swiss order may also have been thru a “Gun Dealer” ( The Swiss sold a lot of ordnance to the Various Chinese Factions, Light machine Canno (AA) and also the “KE-7” Semi Auto Rifle in 7,9mm calibre.

Eidgenossische MunitionsFabrik Thun (Federal Ammo Factory) was not averse to doing “Private Commerce” as well as supplying the Swiss federal Army.
It is unknown whether any Chinese Ammo Factory made any new 13mm Ammo; probably they did, or at least Reloaded Fired cases.
Maybe the official Ordnance Industry History of China has some information on this matter…I will contact one of my Chinese Colleages regarding this.

As to the “April” cartridges (P T67 4 18) they seem to be quite rare, in comparison with the other Months. probably depends on Country of collection…Maybe Battlefield souvenirs rather than Captured or Surrender (Post-Armistice) Ammo. The earlier ammo was probably used more for training Gunners, and in Initial Field encounters, at a rapid rate, so the supposition that their scarcity is due to “end-use” is a reasonable one.

BTW, I have just finished Loading up some “Turned and Formed” Brass cases for a client, they have the correct semi-rim, now take a .50 cal Primer( 7,9mm diameter)Boxer, and are loaded with Turned Copper projectiles( from HT Electrical Busbar). I also have just made a dozen or so T18 cases direct from .50 BMG cases ( simple size and trim to 92mm, neck to 13mm) These do seat, chamber and extract correctly, even without the Semi-rim; One just needs to adjust the sizing die to make sure the shell shoulder headspaces correctly. It is also a simple way to make “Representatice Dummies” For Displays of the Gun. (or Movie Work).

Turned brass cases tend to be soft (especiallty the rim, which may tear in the reloading process.)…so unless someone turns up a cache of Original cases (even 1930s ones) Shooting the T18 is a Rich man’s passtime.

Sorry about the excursion into “manufacturing” but as no “Load” details are included, I consider this Part and Parcel of an appreciation of cartridge construction and engineering, a feature that this Board abounds in.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#34

I am suspicious…the muzzle velocity is stated to be 550 m/s, which looks far too low to me. Not only is it much lower than the 770 m/s normally quoted (which looks more realistic, judging by the size of the case) but it doesn’t really match up with the 6,800m max range either.


#35

I always thought that most were destroyed by the Allies, as Germany wasn’t allowed to have antitank weapons.

Several thousand??? That sounds very high. Is there any photo evidence for such heavy use? What did they do with all those guns? Neither the Japanese nor the Chinese themselves had many armoured vehicles. What did they call the weapon?

Do you have more info on the KE7 exports? I know that a few hundred went to China and a few hundred more to Abyssinia, but the highest production figure I’ve seen is only 1,000. When were they delivered to China, which party bought it (Chiang Kai-shek’s National Army?), and what did they call it? (Aside of the transliterated “chi la li” – from Kir