13x94 Polte A/T Dummies


#1

Are these dummies for the rare A/T gun genuine or reproduction.Obtained from USA 20 years ago.Plated steel bases with a primer dint/hole. No headstamps.
De Hek 3 lists rim as 21.9mm. My rim is 20.9mm. Why smaller?
Rim & base. 20.9mm
Shoulder. 18.3mm approx.
Mouth/projectile. 13.2mm
Rim thickness. 2.0mm
Base to shoulder. 68mm
Base to neck. 83mm
Overall length. 118mm

Do I have rarities?


#2

Should be 13x94 rather than 15x94. Picture of the base would be interesting


#3

My Typo. Sorry it is a 13x94 as you say. I could only send I photo as a first sender.


#4

Looking at the false primer hole, would like to say that these cartridges are reproductions but let’s wait for the experts’s answers.


#5

This is a copy… The german plastic is different I can compare. Have the 7,92x94 and ,7,92x33 originals in collection. Have a look on municion org. There you find my 7,92x94 ex and brass case of dummy 13x94 have a nice weekend…


#6

I agree with laurent and krtecek, these are “reproductions”. Below is the only 13x94mm plastic Ex I have documented. note the different finish, yours look turned to me. The one below is also headstamped and the hole in the steel base is different from yours.

A friend and I did a pretty extensive article on these German plastic Ex rounds for the IAA Journal some years ago, and only this one 13x94 showed up during our research. There was not even a rumor of a red plastic in this caliber.

I was surprised in the number of “reproductions” in the larger calibers. A number of the 7.9x107 reproductions are out there and apparently there was some quantity made.

I would not call your red plastic 13x94 a reproduction since there is no record that I can find that a legitimate round ever existed. This round dates from about 1938 and there is speculation that it was actually a decoy to disguise the development of the 7.9x94. In any case, it was dropped well before red plastic was used for Ex rounds in any caliber. Both red and black plastic occurs on Ex made in 1941, but this is the earliest date found on the red plastics.

Cheers,
Lew


#7

Lew, just want to add that as far as I’m aware black plastic Ex rounds are olders than red’s one.


Looking at the ones pictured on municion.org, the black’s one is clearly identified as a copy but I really doubt the red’s one could be an original because the headstamp is very Strange it looks handmade…
http://www.municion.org/patrone318/Roig.jpg
http://www.municion.org/patrone318/AuxEx31841G.jpg

Laurent


#8

I have never seen this round in red plastic, only black

Rgds


#9

Great image Willem, thank you for sharing! Most unusual headstamp!


#10

Alex, the brass ones do not have a head stamp.

Rgds


#11

Willem, no need to be so cruel! :-)


#12

Thanks to Laurent, Krtecek, Lew, Dutch and EOD for their knowledge and photos.I always had doubts these were genuine. Can someone confirm if correct rim diameter is 21.9mm. I see the 7.92x94 has a rim diameter of 21mm same as my reproductions.


#13

laurent,

During our research we identified four different headstamps on the 7.9x94 rounds. We believe all four of these are original rounds.

image

The headstamp or the red 7.9x94 round you questioned is below

image

It appears identical to the head second from left in our article. The “Ex” is slightly at an angle and the 1 and 8 in “318” almost touch at the bottom. I would think it is a legit cartridge.

You are correct on the colors of the plastic Ex rounds. The earliest dated plastic is a 9mm P08 dated 1940 and the dnb 1940 you picture above.

Cheers,
Lew


#14

Gentleman, perhaps it is nice to know what Polte made, I think in 1941/42.

Hope you enjoy the display.

Courtesy, Woodin Lab.


#15

Dutch, as far as I know the 7.9x107 on this board is the only legit round known, At least it is the only legit round we could find when working on our article.

Lovely Board!

Thanks,
Lew


#16

Lew, is one of the headstamp you pictured upper is coming from this nice board?


#17

Laurent,

The truth is that I don’t remember if it did or not. The Woodin Laboratory has two boards of red plastics, the oone above and another shown below. We got photos of some of the rounds on these boards, but I can’t remember if any were

Lew

image


#18

Thank you Lew,
You said that you believe that the four base you showed are original but these headstamps really look handmade in comparaison of others 7,9x94 or 13x94 ball loading. So I’m wondering if they were made in too much small quantities to made special machinery for headstamping?
Please let me know what your feelings about this.


#19

I agree that this headstamp is pretty crude. Knowing that there were “reproductions” out there, we tried to be careful about them and questioned the owners a bit on the various rounds and their backgrounds.i frankly can’t remember all the details. I have gone through all the image files and the headstamp came from a source in Europe and I don’t know who has the actual cartridge. The misalignment is pretty obvious, but there are other Ex headstamps that are not well aligned, but I can’t recall any from Polte. Below is the image of the cartridge with that headstamp and there are no obvious (to me) problems visible on this round. Others who know this type cartridge much better than I may spot something,

Is it a legit or not! I truthfully don’t know. It is pretty clear that these are two different rounds. The a in aux is more poorly stamped in your photo and the one in your photo has corrosion on the headstamp. If it is a reproduction/fake than more than a single round was made. Comparing the two, the headstamp “irregularities” appear identical so they appear stamped by the same bunter and not hand stamped with individual punches. That seems to me to imply the rounds are legit or the person who faked them went to a lot of trouble to make a bunter!

Again, I really can’t make a judgement on this round. But, my gut feel (which has been known to be wrong) says it is legit!

Sorry,
Lew

PS: I went back and looked at all three of the aux headstamps, and all are pretty lightly stamped with portions of the letters/numbers not well struck. The spacing on the “318” is also not very precise.


#20

This is the headstamp from the 7.9x107 round in the upper right of the board with the green felt background (labeled Ex. Patr. PzB.35§):

PzB35p-ex-patr-head

The 7.9x94 round in the upper left of the same board (labeled Ex.-Patr. 318) has a plain head:

9x94-Ex-plain-head

I don’t have photos of the headstamps from the other board but I can take a look the next time I am at Woodin Lab if it would be helpful to anyone.