The 14.5 SOVIET AT and MG is one of my favorites. It is a very impressive cartridge to handle and to fire. First adopted as an AT rifle cartridge it later was more commonly used as a heavy MG cartridge AND STILL IS !
Once you mentioned US made steel cased rounds. Are any images available and in particular the head stamp if any?
- @ CSAEOD: I like the Romanian one headstamped “21” over “77”. Liviu 08/25/07
I also think, that the 21 stamped is not Hungarian but Romanian. As far as i know Hungarian 12,7 and 14,5mm cartridges were only made in plant 25 (Hajd
Regenstreif say Hungarian on his book. You might want to take it up with him.
I no longer have any of these. You might check with Woodin Lab. All I have left are the silver tip FA made 14.5 API bullets.
Left to right: steel case dummy with flutes, WW2 API tungsten, WW2 API steel core , WW2 reload, WW2 reload long-case and bullet slightly longer due to sizing error.
Flutes in the cases of reloads
Stress cracks in the case of reload
Very interesting! I had asked the question some time ago about the Soviets reloading SAA during WWII and was told that this did not happen. Intersting that the 14.5 was reloaded. Was this done at the unit level or at an ammunition factory?
Thanks for sharing your collection!
No idea. These came from the Markov collection. Wayne was a very enthusiastic collector and I bought his collections out over the years. I bought his 14.5s twice. He really liked the 12.7s and 14.5s and collected every variation . These were the only reloads which he ever found. The first case has quite obviously been fired and reloaded. The crimps are typical. The second is just a bit longer as it was not properly resized but this did not matter with the bolt action AT gun. The semiauto version may not have liked it.
I have studied the Soviet Union and their ammo seriously for at least 35 years and although there are numerous “experts” in the field I have never found 1 who could answer 5 of my questions in a row. WHY ?
Soviet ordnance was purposely compartmentalized by Stalin. Consequently he was the only person with the BIG PICTURE. All others had only a part of the picture.
I will not offer details as they are not necessary to this discussion.
If you study Soviet ammo you will find facts which defy the experts regularly.
Churchill was right when he called the Soviet Union " a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma".
I see unidentified Soviet ordnance every year.
Yes they reloaded- at least 14.5s but on what basis- who knows ? They certainly reloaded larger caliber shells numerous times.
- @ CSAEOD: Many times books give us the WRONG information and in this situation Monsieur Regenstreif made a mistake. The Hungarian plant “21” [Veszprem / ML - during WW2] manufactured only small caliber ammo. The Hungarian plant “25” [Hajduhadhaz-Teglas] manfactured 12.7X108 and 14.5X114 ammo. Your Romanian made 14.5X114 round headstamped “21” over “77” has an identical headstamp style like some other Romanian 14.5X114 fired brass cases I have [headstamped “21” over “73” and “21” over “75”]. —> NOTE: Sometimes we tend to believe 100% what a book says like the author[s] cannot make a mistake. I also believe “Vince/strakv”, he knows better about Hungarian headstamps than anyone else. Liviu 08/25/07 P.S. Some other ammo collectors may think that the ammo plant “25” was Romanian which isn’t correct.
Here are two types of Hungarian short range, aluminium core TP cartridges. Their designation is 78-Rd-1 (TP, blue-white tip) and 78-Rd-2 (TP-T, red-white tip)
A third variation exists as well, but it is very rare. It has a TP-T-SD bullet with blue tip.
Very nice. Thanks
Here are a couple of headstamps that I have of the 14.5.
The top one may be N. Korean. A good one.
Thanks for the info. There are several “experts” who I believe until I see them PROVEN wrong. Proof includes marked boxes , government manuals(not always-proof), company manuals and publications , patents ( again-not always proof),specimens (after forensic examination).
The following ammunition experts are folks who I believe when they give information within their field of expertise:
Bill Woodin - ANYTHING
Col.Frank Hackley - ANYTHING
P.REGENSTREIF - ANYTHING
P. Petrusic - ANYTHING
John Moss - ANYTHING related to auto pistol and/or 7.9 Mauser-lots of other calibers as well
George Kass - rimfires
Lew Curtis - 9mm luger
L. Stoica - Romanian ammo - weapons
Chris Punnet - 30-06 , 450 revolver
Lisa Zumstein - ammo boxes
Christian Knoll - Soviet/Rusian big bore
Russ Cornell - 7.62x39 , x54R , Japanese
Pepper Burruss - LTL , Special Purpose cartridges , flechettes -FOOTBALL
Vic Engel - Floberts , rimfires , Gatling
Rbt. Hawkinson - World artillery
Jerry Janik - mortars and ammo
Francis Warin - weapon design and AERES development
Bruce Bydal - primers and chemicals
Troy Livingston - rimfire manufacturing charateristics
Paul Klatt - ANYTHING U.S. - EARLY
Dean Thomas - ANYTHNG U.S. - EARLY
Bruce Koffler - explosive devices
Dan Dietz - US modern experimental
Wm. Vanderpool - US modern experimental
J. Sutphin - flechettes , modern experimental
Otto Witt - modern pistol , headstamps
Rbt. Gaynor - flares
Rbt. Leiendecker - ANYTHING military
Jeff Osborne - explosive ordnance
Keith Pagel - .50BMG
Andrew Duguid - US military
J-B Anderhub - German ammo
George Hoyem - Ammunition history
Wm. Adye-White - Anything old - British , Canadian
Tony Williams - rapid fire weapons
Dr. Windisch - German ammo
John Scott - general collecting
Dick Broders - artillery
Jason Abels - Lemurs , Tigers , torpedoes
Several others would not want to be named as they are not public persons who participate in such ways.
This is not to say that there are not MANY others who are experts in their own right. There are MANY who I do not know or have not known long enough to be confident with their information.
These are the folks who have proven to MY satisfaction over YEARS of participation in the field that they are serious students , researchers and collectors who value FACTS.
REAL EXPERTS DO NOT MIND BEING PROVEN WRONG BUT IT IS NECESSARY TO PROVE THEM WRONG not just to take a contrary opinion.
I am very much impressed by several of the fellows who post here and look forward to seeing more.
After 50 years in this game I appreciate ALL of those who come to the table and stay.
The ones which I had were plain turned steel no headstamp.
- @ CSAEOD: It doesn’t matter who they are, people make mistakes including what they write and publish. Most of the mistakes are made due to lack of correct information. Nobody knows everything and it’s always new information to be considered. If we ignore or believe the new information it’s up to each of us. Liviu 08/26/07
I can can only add 2. The cws cased one is an APIT loading from North Korea while the other is a API from Egypt. I’ve sectioned an Egyptian 12.7x108 API round and the core was not hardened which was curious.
- @ Paul Smith: The impressed headstamp for your 14.5X114 round [at left] is Egyptian with the two digit date of manufacture “67” and the maker’s code “27” [Shoubra Company for Engineering Industries / Military plant #27 from Cairo]. Some collectors think the brass 14.5X114 shell cases from Egypt were reloaded. It was a debate before on the IAA forum about this interesting subject. Liviu 08/26/07
Thanks, Liviu. I hardly know this cartridge, but if I had to make one other observation, it would seem to me that the same headstamp bunter is used on 14.5 and 12.7 manufactured at this factory in any given year.