14.5x114mm headstamp question


#1

I recently saw a 14.5x114mm API cartridge on one of the online auction sites. The cartridge was listed as WWII Soviet, but the headstamp is “58” at 12 o’clock over “41” at 6 o’clock. I beleive the seller is reading the headstamp as Factory 58 made in 1941. According to my 14.5 headstamp checklist, this is actually a Chinese headstamp. The checklist shows Chinese factory “41” having the year at 12 0’clock and the factory code at 6 o’clock from 1956-1959. From 1960 onwards, the factory code “41” appears in it’s normal 12 o’clock position. I politely told the seller that I beleived that his description was in error and why, and was rudely told I was wrong. Am I wrong? Is this checklist that was compiled by advanced collectors in error? Is there a WWII Soviet factory code of “58” that made 14.5x114mm cartridges in 1941?

AKMS


#2

I wouldn’t take the criticism of the seller too much to heart. I have seen a lot of that. I am one of those chaps peeing against the wind by writing to the sellers when I see an error in the description of items on eBay, usually Makarov stuff. A few graciously accept the correction, and actually change their posting, but many either don’t answr or change anything or send a curt reply telling you, basically, to butt out.

Regenstreif’s fine list of Russian codes shows a Russian Arsenal 58, but with the comment that they only operated in the 1930s. I don’t know anything about 14.5s (or much of anything else), but I would guess that you are completely correct, and the seller, as is often the case, is wrong.

John Moss


#3

I have to unfortunately cloud this question. I have Chinese headstamps with 41 at 12 o’clock as well., but most that I have seen have been after WW2, but there may be some earlier ones I am not sure. The Soviet Headstamp was used until midway through WW2 so it is entirely possible to have a 41 date although as Jon says most seen have been in the 1930’s. Any way you could post a picture of it so we can see the font’s? That may help


#4

I’m not sure if it is approprite to copy someone’s photo without permission and then post it here.

Compared to known WWII Soviet 14.5 headstamp font styles and general appearance, the “58 41” headstamp in question has a very “Chinese” look to it. The headstamp is also missing the typical “Star” seen on most WWII Soviet 14.5 cartridges.

You can find this cartridge on Auction Arms if you search for “14.5x114”.

AKMS


#5

[quote=“AKMS”]I recently saw a 14.5x114mm API cartridge on one of the online auction sites. The cartridge was listed as WWII Soviet, but the headstamp is “58” at 12 o’clock over “41” at 6 o’clock. I beleive the seller is reading the headstamp as Factory 58 made in 1941. According to my 14.5 headstamp checklist, this is actually a Chinese headstamp. The checklist shows Chinese factory “41” having the year at 12 0’clock and the factory code at 6 o’clock from 1956-1959. From 1960 onwards, the factory code “41” appears in it’s normal 12 o’clock position. I politely told the seller that I beleived that his description was in error and why, and was rudely told I was wrong. Am I wrong? Is this checklist that was compiled by advanced collectors in error? Is there a WWII Soviet factory code of “58” that made 14.5x114mm cartridges in 1941?

AKMS[/quote]

Yes , you are correct. Keep up the study . Good luck.


#6

[quote=“JohnMoss”]I wouldn’t take the criticism of the seller too much to heart. I have seen a lot of that. I am one of those chaps peeing against the wind by writing to the sellers when I see an error in the description of items on eBay, usually Makarov stuff. A few graciously accept the correction, and actually change their posting, but many either don’t answr or change anything or send a curt reply telling you, basically, to butt out.

Regenstreif’s fine list of Russian codes shows a Russian Arsenal 58, but with the comment that they only operated in the 1930s. I don’t know anything about 14.5s (or much of anything else), but I would guess that you are completely correct, and the seller, as is often the case, is wrong.

John Moss[/quote]

On the flip side of this are the folks who do not know what they are talking about and want to advise others.

THERE IS PLENTY OF THAT FOR ANYONE WITH A PUBLIC PRESENCE.

If you are wrong and someone who knows tells you that YOU ARE and you take offense that is certainly YOUR problem.

The item in question is mine and it is Chinese.

Anyone else operating on this level of knowledge; and I quote " I don’t know anything about 14.5s" is certainly free to comment.


#7

The Russian plant “58” which was the “Moscol Lead Casting Factory” used to produce shot shell cases, mortar propelling cartridge cases and flare gun cases. The only exception so far is a 7.62x54R from 1937 which was found with this code on.

Russian 14.5mm AT rifle cartridges made in 1941 had the “BS-41” tungsten cored API projectile on. These projectiles were painted all red and had black tips. The primers of such cartridges were painted all black.
The projectile in question here is according to it’s markings (black over red tip) a B-32 and the primer is also not painted. These projectiles started to show up in late war, mostly on 1944 cases and it is assumed that there were for the first 14.5mm KPV machgine gun even if these cartridges still in the 1950s had their tins marked with “apply oil to cartridges for use in AT rifles” (maybe for emergency use). On the other hand there are 14.5mm KPV manuals showing the BS-41 as for use in machine guns (to use up the stocks?).

AKMS
There was at least one hs without star: “46 43”

The cartridge in question here with the “58” on the 12h position is definately Chinese (factory 41) unless there is also a Russian plant “59” and the Chinese got hold of such cases and turned them into their dummy cartridges as can be seen here.
Besides that the “59” is a brass washed steel case, if the “58” is the same material it would be a pretty thing to have Russian 14.5mm steel case from 1941.

Questioning the expertise of people is legitimate but should not let us forget that there is always someone who is knowing better.


#8

[quote=“AKMS”]I recently saw a 14.5x114mm API cartridge on one of the online auction sites. The cartridge was listed as WWII Soviet, but the headstamp is “58” at 12 o’clock over “41” at 6 o’clock. I believe the seller is reading the headstamp as Factory 58 made in 1941. According to my 14.5 headstamp checklist, this is actually a Chinese headstamp. The checklist shows Chinese factory “41” having the year at 12 0’clock and the factory code at 6 o’clock from 1956-1959. From 1960 onwards, the factory code “41” appears in it’s normal 12 o’clock position. I politely told the seller that I believed that his description was in error and why, and was rudely told I was wrong. Am I wrong? Is this checklist that was compiled by advanced collectors in error? Is there a WWII Soviet factory code of “58” that made 14.5x114mm cartridges in 1941?

AKMS[/quote]

This was brought up before (to the best of my recollection) and the case you describe is Chinese…

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]The item in question is mine and it is Soviet.
[/quote]

I am wanting to learn… If it is Soviet… do you have any documentation? All that I have come across (documentation wise) is that is Chinese as stated previously.

I refer to:

Cartridge Headstamp Guide (First Revision) Pg. 38 figure 4-40.
Technical Ammunition Guide Series 3 Pam. 4 - 14.5x114 Ammunition by P. Labbett
Identification Guide - Military Small Caliber Ammunition - (Up to 15mm) pg. 182 fig. D41 (Annex D)

Is there a better reference? If so can you please share.

Thanks.


#9

Bueller


#10

I’m confused. Is it Chinese or Soviet?


#11

Chinese!


#12

I got these two inert 14.5x114mm rounds with the same headstamp, I believe they are Russian WW2 plant 3 1944? I was wondering if they where used for the heavy machine gun or anti-tank rifle? Also note the concentric circles on the headstamp are different, would this be normal?


#13

Head stamps are Soviet. Plant #3 in Ulyanovsk. And the left one is unusual variant.


#14

Have you seen this cartridge/case with 58 (59 ?) plant? Can you show it?


#15

Perhaps the one on the left was made by a 12.7x108mm headstamp bunter? Maybe as an emergency or to use up a surplus of bunters? I am away from my references so I can not compare the two caliber sizes…

AKMS


#16

Yuri & AKMS,

Thanks guys, any information is much appreciated, as I know very little about these rounds.

Regards
Michael