14.5x20R Kleinstkanone

I have recently acquired a half dozen assorted 14.5mm sub-calibre rounds and am struggling to identify them accurately. I have read Will Reuter’s excellent article in IAA Journal 470 and, although these two cartridges are pictured, the article does not fully explain the two very different projectiles. Can anybody help with identifying them please? I know nothing about these so any help would be appreciated!


This second cartridge has a removeable nose section which I suspect contains an impact fuse of some sort.


P1090524

Jim, these are the most typical projectiles for the country / manufacturer and time period they are representing.
Both having spotting loads.

Hi Jim,

The German cartridge with impact fuze is designated “Übungspatrone 34 AZ” and the green color identifies a “large load”; the Czechoslovakian cartridge is designated “14,5-Rd-CP 34”.

Regards,

Fede

Edited to avoid confusion regarding the fuze type.

Fede, the Czech model has a nose fuze. How can that be in the “lower part” ?

Here some labels for the DAG ones.
Source internet.
5x20R_Oeb-Patronen%2034%20AZ_by%20DAG_Germany

Thank you both. I suspect Alex is correct about the Czech fuze being in the removable nose rather than in the main body itself. Does the term “Grosse Ladung” refer to the propellant charge or the spotting charge?

I’ve found the answer to that question myself in Will’s article - it refers to full & reduced propellants for use at varying ranges.

Keep in mind it is an artillery trainer. “Real” artillery also uses more than one charge to cover different ranges. These devices are operated like real artillery: the fire control team computes azimuth and elevation, each gun crew lays its gun accordingly, loads the commanded type of round and fires on command. The most instructive thing is that everyone can immediately see the resulting impact points with the unaided eye.

Jim, as Jochem explained it already.
These rounds were initially meant for training of howitzer crews.
And as with all guns firing at high angles the propellant charge is adapted to the desired firing distance.
Basic rule is to use as less propellant as possible to aquire the needed distance.
All in all this is a measure to extend barrel life.
Less propellant = less heat = less pressure = longer barrel life.

The successor of the 14.5x20R is the 14.5x51R whcih is used in the same role but there I also know of subcaliber barrels for 105mm tank guns. I assume these were used with “full charge” only.

You are right! I was looking at the wrong description.

Now that you’ve nicely introduced the 14.5 x 51R Alex I would also appreciate information on these two cartridges please!

This first cartridge has no case markings but has a dark blue/green lacquer tip. What type of load is this?

The second cartridge has a very faint yellow lacquer tip. Again, what type of load is this?

Some boxes for these 51mm types.
5%20boxes

Hi Jim, according to a UK doc from 1970, there were three charge weights, yellow representing charge 1 & 3, and blue for charge 2. It states projectiles were percussion & time fused, with percussion marked ‘AZ’ on the case, time fused marked ZTZ 3S (or 6S) depending whether it was 3 seconds or 6 seconds. Also says the timed fused ones will have a 3 or a 6 stamped on the nose of the projectile. It says the L1A1, Charge 1, was the only one in UK service at that time, & show it as having a propellant charge of 0.20g of NC powder. Not sure how this compares to your markings Jim, your yellow one seems to say ‘2. Ldg’? Also shows the L1A1 smoke composition as 85% Lead dioxide & 15% Aluminium powder, Pete.

Jim, I think all was said by Muskey.

Your specimen appear to be very early ones (earlierst I saw). Very nice!
Here some more images from municion.org:
http://www.municion.org/14_5x51/14_5x51.htm

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Here a German DM87 Spotter/Tracer crate. This one has no charge size given as it is for the subcaliber tank gun.
Makring is red tip with yellow band below.
5x51R_spotter%20tracer_DM87_Germany

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Here a yellow one disassembled

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And here a newer “lead free” variant with an electronic time fuze inside!
5x51R_lead%20free_Germany 5x51R_lead%20free_Germany-

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Images source: internet.

Here’s another one marked PD-FUZE, CHARGE-1, LOT-69-57.

And just to have it mentioned in about 1967 DAG developed a 14.5x51R subcaliber system for the 40mm M79:

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Here the artillery trainer in 14.5x51R as offered today by DAG/RUAG, basically the same as in 1934.
And a DAG/RUAG digital rendering of the cartridges.
5x51R_ATS
+
5x51R

I have a Norwegian-marked, DAG-mfg’d 14,5x51 I’ll post later. Brown tip.

Ole

Thank you all!

Last question on this topic…I don’t recognise the Czech headstamp code ‘dtp’. Who is it please?

Jim, “dtp” is Vlárské strojírny, n. p., Slavicín.

Regards,

Fede

If I am not wrong dtp - Vlárské strojírny.

Btw. I found article about Übungspatrone but in Czech so you have to translate it:
http://detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&lang=1&i=64622&mm=3&xb=1&vd=1