1966 Match box


#1

While visiting a local Chicagoan gun shop (which has a fame for shooting armed intruders), I was shown this box (was not for sale). It contained 4 dummies with drilled sides. What was the purpose since those dummies looked like display ones and not the functional ones?


#2

Vlad

Those were given out as souvenirs at the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio. They should be chrome=plated. There are at least a couple of different headstamps.

That’s an unusual box because it does not have a lot number stamped on it. Lake City used an SP or SPEC lot number series to ID them. I have Lot LC SPEC 457 which contains LC 67 NM cartridges.

Ray


#3

Just a slightly different take on this which may or not be appropriate in this instance. Gun shops that display ammo boxes as part of their window display often put a label on the box saying “empty box” to stop idiots putting a brick through the window to steal them. So the stamped message on the box may have meant it was part of a window display. Probably explains the lack of lot numbers.


#4

Vince

That’s a reasonable explanation. But, the store owner would have to acquire empty and otherwise unmarked boxes, without a lot number - something that even I, a collector with over 100 Match boxes, have never seen. Also, the wording and placement of the added information is exactly the same as it is on the souvenir boxes. And, there’s the presence of the four cartridges.

All in all, my story is that it’s a box of Camp Perry souvenirs, and I’m sticking with it. ;)

Ray


#5

Ray
Still running with my suggestion although not necessarily trying to defend it. Presumably the ammo company rep would provide point of sale or display equipment to the shop as an inducement to encourage them to promote his line(s). If so that could make the box a bit more collectable.


#6

Vince - The “ammo company” would be the US Govt Lake City Army Ammunition Plant and I never heard of them promoting their line of ammunition toward possible sales at gun stores.

But, this photo from Vlad does give me another box to look for. As though I need another.

Ray


#7

[quote=“RayMeketa”]Vince - The “ammo company” would be the US Govt Lake City Army Ammunition Plant and I never heard of them promoting their line of ammunition toward possible sales at gun stores.

But, this photo from Vlad does give me another box to look for. As though I need another.

Ray[/quote]
I managed to get that point all by my self Ray, I meant some middle man. Do they have a distributor? The box looks made for civilian sale rather than issue.


#8

Vince - The distributor is the US govt. The closest thing to civilian sales in those days was the old Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM), another government agency, that handled the distribution of Lake City (and Frankford Arsenal) Match ammunition to inividuals and clubs that participated in competitions.

That is the standard 7.62mm Match M118 carton used between 1963 and 1982. As I said, I have a closet full of them and they are identical except for hand stamped markings such as lot numbers and/or other notations applied at Lake City. During the transition from M118 Match to M118 Special Ball and M852 Match, that carton was used with an over-label applied by Lake City.

But, I have been collecting long enough to know that anything is possible and there may indeed be boxes such as you described.

Things today are a little different. Lake City AAP is allowed to sell overruns or govt rejects to private companies and/or individuals through the operator of the plant (Alliant Techsystems Inc). But, those cartridges are boxed seperate from the standard GI issue and so marked. The DCM is now a quasi-public corporation that operates with no government assistance. They do sell surplus ammunition and arms directly to shooters. Most of it is foreign made and anything that they get from the US Army is reimbursed.

Ray


#9

Vince
That & it’s brothers & sisters is a WELL KNOWN variation to NATO box collectors. Ray was / is 100% correct as to the box. It’s not some dealer window display fantasy.
I also have a 1967 “LOT LC SPEC. 457” & it used purple ink for the slightly different spaced lettering of the “empty & etc” rubber stamp.
If the box has been in a window the lot stamp could have faded & I do see some mall black spots where the lot stamp should be.


#10

[quote=“PetedeCoux”]Vince
That & it’s brothers & sisters is a WELL KNOWN variation to NATO box collectors. Ray was / is 100% correct as to the box. It’s not some dealer window display fantasy.
I also have a 1967 “LOT LC SPEC. 457” & it used purple ink for the slightly different spaced lettering of the “empty & etc” rubber stamp.
If the box has been in a window the lot stamp could have faded & I do see some mall black spots where the lot stamp should be.[/quote]
Peter
I am not having some “fanatsy” (a bit harsh don’t you think?) about it being a display box. The box is clearly emblazed front and back with a stamp saying FOR DISPLAY ONLY which might be a good indicator that at some time in its life it had been just that. Somebody had gone to the trouble of getting a stamp made up saying EMPTY FOR DISPLAY ONLY. They must have had a reason.

The who, when and why was the basis of a bit of fat chewing with Ray who was, as usual, educating me.

The fact that it is a well know box I don’t think is that significant. The purpose of the forum is to learn from discussions not be dead right first time, every time.


#11

I am a world famous nit-picker so it’s only fair that I include myself when it comes to picking.

To clarify - the current heir of the old DCM is the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program). It is a federally chartered 501©(3) corporation, whatever the hell that is. Sorta like the USPS, I think. Regardless, it receives no government funding and relies on the sale of surplus ammunition and arms to fund it’s operations.

Ray


#12

Vlad - doesn’t look like the question Ray asked about whether or not the dummy rounds were chrome-plated or not ever got answered. It would help sort out weather these were for souvenirs to the shooters at Camp Perry (I have the 1965 .45 round and box that was given that year, or whether they were made for other Government display purposes. Ther are certainly not for civilian gun dealer displays. They could, however, have been for either government displays in museums or other events, or even for club-house displays for DCM=associated clubs, which would be a quasi-military (or one could equally say a quasi-civilian) purpose.

My .45 box from 1965 is simply overlabeled “DUMMY” in very large, heavy black letters. The original lot number on the box is blacked out and lot number 5000 (Remington Arms) is there instead. Another line with information pertinent to live ammunition is blacked out. The cartridges have a hole in the primer cup, and are chromed.


#13

Sorry, Ray was right, the cartridges I saw were very shiny chrome-plated, I did not take a picture. If anyone lives in northern Chicago and can go to Smoke’n Gun shop to take a shot of this, it may help.


#14

In that case, I would say Ray is right on. Souvenirs from Camp Perry.