1990s German DAG & MEN 7.62mm NATO AB22 cartridges?


#1

Does anyone have information on DAG (Dynamit Nobel A-G) & MEN (Metallwerk Elisenhutte Nassua) 7.62mm NATO AB22 cartridges? The packaging as well as the cartridges look identical except for the different headstamp lot numbers. Were these 2 companies in partnership in producing 7.62mm NATO AB22 cartridges? Also any information on the thin steel jacket AB22 bullet design would be very much appreciated.

                                        Thanks,
                                        Carey

#2

From the 1970-80s onwards, DAG, MEN, Hirtenberg, and FNM Portugal All supplied the BundesHeer with 7,62 Nato standard ammo, and the Packets were all similarly stamped with the relevant details, only the manufacturers’ Logo was different ( and Lot numbers); they were packed either in 1500 round German Patronenkasten (Timber), or 1000 rounds in 200 round Plastic “Battle packs”.

This was the German standard at the time. And being “German” all the Boxing, Labelling, headstamp layout etc, was the same standard. ( irrespective of manufacturer.)

As to the ammo being very similar in appearance, the Machinery used by nearly all the makers was Modern German or Belgian machinery–Fritz Werner, New LaChaussee, etc ( Even the Nigerian 7,62, made on F.Werner equipment, resembles the German Nato ammo.

Cases of all these makers are top quality, Berdan, Noncorrosive, and with the right tools, eminently reloadable. I have fired and reloaded thousands of them, back in the 1980s.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics,
Australia.


#3

Hi Doc,
I appreciate your information. In regards to the AB22 labeling on the DAG & MEN packaging: Do you know if this is in reference to a specific bullet type? The reason I ask is that DAG, MEN, FNM, LC, WCC, and other military cartridge manufacturers all made steel jacket/lead core 7.62x51mm BALL cartridges. But we have found that the thin steel jacket on the German manufactured DAG & MEN cartridge will fragment dramatically at a much lower velocity threshold than the LC cartridges. All of the '90s vintage DAG & MEN AB22 marked cartridges I have fired has a cupro-nickel color bullet. But the '80s and earlier DAG & MEN cartridges have a normal copper colored bullet and the packaging is not always marked AB22.
Sorry I can’t ask a more informed question, but I just don’t know very much about the DAG & MEN AB22 cartridges yet.

                                         Thanks,
                                         Carey

#4

leid, “AB22” is only the exchangeability code of ball ammunition, it is no particular designation of the cartridges itself.
German AB22 will be DM41 and DM111.


#5

EOD,
Thanks, that starts to clear things up. People on other boards think that AB22 is a bullet specification. My understanding is that both DM41 and DM111 are both “Weichkern” soft cores. Some of the earlier 7.62x51mm DAG & MEN packaging is labeled “DM 41” whereas the '90s packaging is labeled “AB 22”. Does virtually all the German 7.62x51mm military BALL ammunition use a thin steel jacket/lead core bullet?

                                         Carey

#6

Basically yes but with some differences:
DM41: tombak plated soft iron jacket
DM41A1: different case (boxer) and consequently different primer
DM41B1: tombak jacket
DM111: tombak plated soft iron jacket tinned from both sides
DM111A1: different propellant


#7

Your information makes things much more clear.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Carey

Edit: I just checked the packaging on 1994 MEN 7.62x51mm BALL cartridges. It is marked “AB22” , “DM111”, & “Weichkern”.


#8

[quote=“DocAV”]From the 1970-80s onwards, DAG, MEN, Hirtenberg, and FNM Portugal All supplied the BundesHeer with 7,62 Nato standard ammo, and the Packets were all similarly stamped with the relevant details, only the manufacturers’ Logo was different ( and Lot numbers); they were packed either in 1500 round German Patronenkasten (Timber), or 1000 rounds in 200 round Plastic “Battle packs”.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics,
Australia.[/quote]

Doc,
There were also FN, Manusaar (Diehl, Bübingen later bought by DAG) and even IMI if I am correct.
Talking about Germany it is the Bundeswehr then, the Bundesheer is in Austria.
In the beginning the Bundeswehr had the “Packschachtel DM1” for 200 rounds (in 10 boxes), basically a copy of the pre 1945 “Packhülse 88” carrier. I do not know the date when they switched to plastic bag carriers.
The DM41 came in wooden 1000 rd crates.


#9

EOD, you are right. They were boxer primed and from my memory they had headstamps from the early or mid 1960s.


#10

Wow, my memory is not as weak as I thought…


#11


#12

Gyrojet, thank you for reanimating confidence into my ageing grey cells!

:-)

Hans


#13

Gyrojet,
Thanks for the pictures of the early examples. How does the headstamp on the early IMI DM41A1 cartridge read?

                                    TIA,
                                   Carey

#14

The Dutch company “Nederlandse Wapen en munitiefabriek De Kruithoorn” (NWM) 's-Hertogenbosch was also a supplier of AB22 7,62mmx51 Weichkern DM41A1 (boxerprimed) ammo to the Deutsche Bundeswehr.

Regards,
Rob


#15

headstamp IMI

12 o’ clock 7,62x51
18 o’ clock IMI 12-61

gyrojet


#16

I found these boxes on the last German show

200 round box AB22 headstamp MS 48-62


and 20 round box made by FN


and this AB22 FN box with different label with headstamp 7,62x51 FN 16-61