2 9mm Maxim

2 fully loaded and untouched Maxim rounds
SherrylIMG_8446

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The one on the left looks like a Maxim produced round. 1917 date and a copper primer. The one on the left is hard to read but the letters look like a USCCO made case and the brass primer make me guess it is dated 1918.

Cheers,
Lew

Lew - fairly clear on my screen. The one on the left IS dated 1918.

john

Lew
I nearly did not post them because the photos were not all that good but had decided that one could still
read it but it seems not yes the one is 1917 and the other is 1918 I have another 1918 with the same
lettering.Lew the problems I have with getting this stuff into the computer you cannot comprehendI have some
boxes and small series of 9mm like DWM ,MM,RS.Spandau.Geco.some.H.and Canadian I cannot get it on
a computer at least not in a satisfactory manner.I will have in the future most likely only suck up the
knowledge from others but will myself in general with the ought exception have to stay away from things
because of this pic business .Sherryl

Hi all,
Is the 9x19mm Maxim scare or rare?

Find this one in my “still to do” stack.

Same as this one, 9 x 20 SR (9mm Browning long), 103 years old.
Is this a common one, from WW1? Hirtenberger Patronen Zundhütchen und Metallwarenfabrik

With regards,
Jaco

Jaco - you don’t trip over stacks of MAXIM 9 mm Glisenti ammunition in the aisles at Safeway, but I would definitely not describe them as rare, or actually, even necessarily scarce. There are a couple of headstamp variants - a little more than just dates - and one is scarcer than the other. By the way, the Maxim 9 mm rounds were a contract for Italy, and are generally classified as 9 mm Glisenti loads. Personally, with the huge variety of 9mm Para loads - bullet weights, bullet shapes, muzzle velocities, pressures, etc., the “Glisenti” nomenclature doesn’t, in my opinion, count for much, but they were originally made for weapons that Italy classified as “9 mm M910” caliber, and the M910 refers to the cartridge and the Glisenti Model 1910 Pistol.

Reference: “The 9m/m Glisenti Model 1910 Cartridge,” by John Moss with photogrpahic assistance from Lew Curtis, Woodin Laboratory, IAA Journal Issue 454, Mar/Apr 2007, pages 10 - 24.

Your “H” 9 mm Browning Long is a common cartridge. The “H” in this case represents manufacture by Rheinische Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabrik, Düsseldorf, of Germany.
IThe only reported Austrian headstamps, by Hirtenberger, were " * I H I * I * I " and " * * * * ).

Reference: “The 9m/m Browning Long Cartridge - Part l,” Woodin Laboratory, compiled by John L. Moss, IAA Journal Issue 443, May/June 2005, pages 4-18.
“The 9m/m Browning Long Cartridge - Part 2,” Woodin Laboratory, compiled by John L. Moss, IAA Journal Issue 444, July/August 2005, pages 44-57.

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Thanks a lot John! Do you never sleep?
I have read the stories about the 9 mm Maxim / Western - Glisenti.
But I did not know if they where scare or something. It is the first one I see in 40+ years collecting 9mm.

About the 9 mm Browning, thans too, the information on Municion.org is not right then.
Learnig every day…

With regards and stay healthy!!!

Jaco

Having been retired for 20 years, and now living alone, I sleep when I feel like it and stay up when I don’t. Sometimes I work at night or very early in the morning, and then sleep for a few hours midday. The only advantage I have found being 80 years old - you can do just about anything you want to. You don’t have to meet other people’s time clocks.

Thanks for you kind regards.

John

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Jaco,
Your 9mm Maxim round was actually made by USCCO who took over the Italian contract from Maxim in very late 1917. The details are interesting and covered well in the article John referenced.

I didn’t know these were USCCO made until John dug up that information.

I agree with John on rarity but a very nice round with an interesting history.

Cheers,
Lew

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John, and Lew:
How “common” are the 9mm Browning Long, since- as I remember- there was only one pistol made for it, and only four contries adopted it?
How long was the 9mm Browning long manufactured?

Badger - I’ll reference you back to my article in IAA, mentioned above, for the pistol info. Don’t have time to look it up now, but off the top of my head, there were four pistols made for it, five if you count two countries making the same pistol, albeit under different Model Designations. There was also a submachine gun made for the cartridge.

The pistols were two versions of the Webley Automatic, the second version made primarily for the Union of South Africa, the French Le Français, and the FN-Browning Model 1903, duplicated in Sweden as the Husqvarna Model 1907. I am not sure how many countries officially adopted it. There were several that used the FN pistol in pretty good quantities. South Africa used it, but I don’t know if it was actually adopted there or not. To my knowledge, it was an item of individual purchase for the Webley first Model, and never really adopted by Great Britain. The FN types were used in at last one or two South American countries. The Le Français, to my knowledge, was purely a commercial pistol. Probably saw the inside of some French Officer’s holsters, though, although I have no documentation for that.

As to how common is the Browning Long Cartridge, it depends on which one you are talking about. A few are very, very scarce, others are very, very common, and everything in between. As for overall numbers, I do not collect dates on headstamps (If I have a round with one date and there are variations identical in all things except the date on the headstamp, I save only one), and I have 98 variations in this caliber in my own collection. I am missing some, aside from dates, that I don’t have. The number would be over 100 variations not counting dates, I am sure.

John Moss

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Badger, Your 9mm BL is one of the more interesting to me. Clearly WWI military manufacture, but I don’t know the specifics of “for who” and “why”. Your round, or at least the case was made in September 1918.

The first box below was intended for repack ammunition and the rounds in it have cases made in August 1918 (hst: H 8 18). From my limited knowledge I suspect this Rheinische Metallwaaren lot was made as a single batch in late 1918. John illustrates headstamps dated May and July 1918…
image

The second box is more interesting to me. Unfortunately, it is not in my collection and I have no idea what the headstamp is, During WWI the Belgian factory AEP was under the control of Rheinische Metallwaaren They loaded 9mm P08, 9mmK and 9mmBL. Their WWI German code was “Pi”. The P08 and Kurz boxes indicate the case (Hulsen) was made by “H” (Rheinische Metallwaaren) and the cases are headstamped with an “H”.As far as I know, nobody has found a WWI era case in any pistol caliber headstamped “Pi”. I strongly suspect this box contains “H” headstamp ammunition like your round and like my repack box above.

image
John illustrates an almost identical box but his has a date stamped on it ahead of the 1918 lot load date which appears to be “5 Nov”. I sure wish I had one of these boxes with a few or more rounds in it! I do accumulate interesting 9mm BL boxes.

Again, I find your 9mmBL very interesting and apparently is the only Geman military production of this caliber besides Spandau which produced this caliber and packed it in military boxes in 1916. Other German companies produced 9mm BL but apparently only for commercial or export sales.

Much of this information is from John’s article in Journal 443.

I hope somebody on the Forum can shed more light on this cartridge and the wartime relationship between AEP and Rheinische Metallwaaren.

Cheers,
Lew

Rheinische Metallwaaren produced the 9 mm Browning Long cartridge cases and bullets from May thru October of 1918. I have seen no documentation for the loading of this ammunition by A.E.P. of Belgium, but it is not impossible. Considering the year, Belgium would have already been largely under German control, and while the Model 1903 FN Pistol was never officially adopted by Belgium, they were in use. I assume (and it is only assumption) that Model 1903 pistols would have been taken by the Germans and used as substitute standard sidearms in the military.

Harder to explain is the production of 9 mm Long cases in June of 1916 by the Königliche Munitionsfabrik Spandau, headstamped S / 6 / 16 / /. The only box label found in my own study of this cartridge, which I do not own, indicates the cartridges in the box were actually loaded in October 1916.

DWM had a case number for the 9 mm Browning Long cartridge, but no DWM-headstamped round of this caliber has been reported. However, there are unheadstamped versions of this cartridge, and it is not impossible that DWM produced a small quantity with no headstamp. This was not unknown with DWM; the unheadstamped s0-called 7.65 mm Glisenti cartridge was produced by them, and has no headstamp.

9 mm Ammunition was made with both the GECO and RWS headstamps, primarily on a commercial basis, although there is an RWS 1932 headstamp in this caliber, likely indicating either a police or military round. I have seen no box label for the dated version, which was loaded in two variations. One of the variations is similar in some characteristics with 9 mm Parabellum cartridges supplied to the Dutch in 1933, and there was some use of the 9 mm Browning Long cartridge in FN Model 1903s used by air crewmen of the Dutch Navy, although only 80 pistols were involved, and the were purchased in 1922 and used under the Dutch appellation of "Automatisch Pistool No. 2 (Browning).

RWS and GECO commercial pistol cartridges of the early 1930s were both actually made by GECO, under an agreement between the two companies. However, it is my opinion that military contract pistol ammunition was actually produced by RWS, but in the case of the dated 9 mm Browning Long rounds, the headstamping would indicate they, too, were made by Geco.

Finally, the 9 mm Long cartridge was also made for Turkey and sold under the brand of “Marke Füllhorn,” and bears a headstamp of two Cornucopias and the Turkish Army Property Mark. It is not sure when these were made. The company originally was named A, & W, Allendorf, Sprengstoff- und Patronenfabrik, Schönebeck am Elbe. An ad for their Marke Füllhorn ammunition is dated June 1st, 1913. The identical ad, other than the company name of Öberschlesiche Aktiengesellchaft für Fabrikation von Lignose, Shiesswollfabrik für Armee und Marine, Abt. (Abteilung) Schönebeck a. E. 10. This add is dated only two months later, August 1st, 1913.

While we don’t know why so much 9 mm Browning Long ammo was made in Germany, there was enough market that in a German 1939 RWS Catalog, they advertised a 4 mm adaptor kit for the M.1902 (A.M.) 9 Lang Browning. Note the 1902 designation for the FN Pistol, as well as the “A.M.” standing for “Armee Model.”

Wish we knew more about the German use of the 9 mm Browning Long in WWI. The contract loads for Turkey, a user of the M1903 “Le Grand Modele” pistol, and the commercial ammunition, with RWS and GECO both being exporters of ammunition commercially and to foreign government buyers, are well understood.

John Moss

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John,
about mid-1913 the "Oberschlesische …’ bought A & W Allendorf, as reported by Zeitschrift für das gesamte Schiess- und Sprengstoffwesen in its issue No. 10 of 1913, p. 199.

Peelen,

Thank you. I knew that, but worded my long answer, which I did in a hurry, badly making it sound like the original owners just changed their company name. The purchase, from the ads I have, must have taken place between June and August, 1913.

John Moss

John, the identification of the WWI “Pi” code as AEP is documented in Rifle & Carbine 98" by Dieter Storz who is on the staff of the Ingolstadt Army Museum, on page 340.

Lew

Lew - thank you. I don’t have that book. I have 13 books on German Military Rifles, which I only have a passing interest in, so I stopped buying them years ago. Any chance for a scan of that information (if in English. If in German, don’t bother, as I can’t read German well enough to make it worth the trouble). Just a quick look at a “work book” I put together for myself on German Codes, all from documented sources, shows that Pi was used by AEP. I have a photo of the German-language page from some source, plus an English translation. Evidently it is the work you are speaking of, as the top of the translation, missing from the German page, is “Around the M98 Rifle and Carbine.” If this is the page from that book, I don’t need a scan of it. The only thing missing in my notes is any mention of its relationship to Rheinische Metallwaaren. However, I also have a German document date 18 November 1926 that shows “Pi” as a code used by Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik. The document is marked "Geheime Kommandosache “Z” and refers to “Karabiner- und Pistolen-Munition.”

John M.

John, the “Pi” from 1926 and the “Pi” from 1918 are indeed different codes. The first is in line with a number of similar codes, like Pö, Pu, Ps für Böhme, Burgsmüller and a Swedish maker.

Peelen - thank you. I wish I had 1/10th of the knowledge that you do. I suspected that they might be different, but I really wasn’t sure at all.

Thanks again.

John