20 rd 7.65 Br box

What is the approximate date of this box?
7.65 Br
20 round box mfg by S & B
Headstamp
SBP 7.65
Brass case
grey steel primer with black primer ring
cncsS & B 7.65 Br 20 rd box S & B 7.65 Br 20 rd box a

Very interesting box! My opinion is sometime after WW2, cca. in 1945 -1950. But I can be wrong…

I received this answer from Jan Franzen in Slovakia:

As for your question, so I know that the factory had the name in the years 1931-1945. According to the 20-piece box, this is the period in the second half.

I would have thought this box would have been a little later, perhaps 1946 or so. I have what I believe is the same box. Mine came empty, and due to its depth, I thought it was for 7.65 Luger caliber ammunition. It is obvious, after checking mine out, that it is a repurposed 16-round 9 x 19mm Box of the pattern used by Germany. My thought was that it was a use of left over boxes from WWII. We know WWII components of various types were used up by the Czechs. Some supplies were in short quantities after the war, and prudently used by factories there. I have what is certainly a post-war loading of 9 mm Para, headstamped ak St+ 8 45 (the highest lot number and date known for this code), according to Lew Curtis’ fine headstamp guide for 9 mm headstamps. It has a plain steel-jacketed bullet with a red case-mouth seal, atypical for the “ak” code ammunition manufactured under German specifications before the war ended.

I do not, truthfully, understand the comments by our friend Jan Franzen, but then I cannot translate the entire bottom line of print on the label in question: Továrny na strelivo dríve, Sellier a Bellot, Praha. Of course, I know “Sellier and Bellot, Prague,” but what precedes it I cannot read. (Pardon the absence of some punctuation characters that I do not know how to reproduce here).

Bob - the 7.65 mm Browning rod is considerably shorter OACL than the depth of the box. Does your box have anykind of a cardboard spacer under or over the cartridges to make up for the difference? Just wondering. I have no doubts at all now that the box is for 7.65 Browning, and that the SBP 7.65 ammo in it is original to it.

John Moss

John Moss

Google translation = Ammunition factories before

That would make the line of print read “Ammunition factories before Sellier and Bellot, Prague.” I must be missing something in the translation, as I don’t understand that, especially in light of Bob’s box containing SBP-headstamped cartridges. With that wording, I would expect a mixture of everything EXCEPT Sellier & Bellot. Also, Sellier & Bellot is an old company, predating the manufacture of auto pistol ammunition. What companies making .32 auto ammo would be “before Sellier & Bellot”???

No complaint with your translation Brian, of course. We are all at the mercy of Google’s “first meaning” word translations. I wonder how our Czech cartridge friends would interpret that line?

John Moss

John - I compared my 20 round 7.65 box to a typical WWII German 9mm 16 round box and they are the same size.
My google translation came up as
Ammunition Shop S & B Prague

Bob - so, our boxes are the same - repurposed Germn-style 9 mm boxes. The translation you used makes a lot more sense. Another problem with Google translastions - two highly knowledgeable collectors googled the phrase, and got two different translations!

John M.

John,
“Továrny na strelivo dríve S&B” translates “Ammunition factories previously S&B”

Instead of using google translate, I used https://translate.yandex.com/
This site lets you type in words from Czech letter keyboard.
Translation is very similar to Hans
“ammunition factories earlier”
Any idea what this means as far as a time-frame?
Pre war years, war years or post war years?

Hans - that makes more sense yet, as a translation. So, the label intimates production prior to the end of the war, when the name of the factory was Munitionsfabriken vormals Sellier & Bellot, Prag. Fabrik in Vlasim, using the code “ak.”

Does anyone know how quickly after the Germans were pushed out of Czechoslovakia that the name was changed back to simply the Czech form of the name, Sellier & Bellot?

This era interests me. I have a 7.65 mm with the very rare headstamp " dou 7.65 " (note that the customary dot after “dou” to keep the headstamp from being read as " nop 7.65 " was not applied in this instance), which I feel must have been made close to the end of the war. Of course, that was the code for the Waffenwerke Brünn A.-G., Werk Pov. Bystrica.

John Moss

Jan Franzen sent me the following message and attachments.
Company name that is used on the 7.65 box would have been made between 1931 and 24-10/Oct-1945.
Does the grey steel primer give us any idea of date of manufacture?

Hi Bob,

I see discussion on IAA. To my answer I coming from this material (in attachment). It speak about official names of Sellier & Bellot. Sorry, it is in Czech-German language. At your box is not after his name „národný podnik“ (national company). From this I come to date 1931-1945.

In attachment is Picture from the same box, but with 7,62 mm Nagant blank produced after WWII. At the etiketts are not full name , but only logo S&B (left up).

Regards

Jan

Amtliche Namen der Firma Sellier & Bellot in Wandel der Historie dieser Firna

Von 1825

„K. u K. ausschl. Kupferzündhütchenfabrik von Sellier & Bellot in Prag“, aber existiert auch nur „Sellier & Bellot, Prag“

Von 10.3.1873

„Aktiengesellschaft zur Fabrikation von Zündhütchen, Patronen und Oesen, volals Sellier & Bellot in Prag“ (event. Prag und Schönebeck a. El.)

Von 1882

„Zündhütchen und Patronenfabrik, vormal Sellier & Bellot. Prag“ (event. Prag und Schönebech a. El.)

Bis etwa Jahr 1900 sind alle Dokumente und Schachteln in deutsch oder französisch, nach dieses Zeit auf in tschechisch.

Von 1931

„Továrny na střelivo, dříve Sellier & Bellot“, Praha (nur in tschechisch, übersetz. Munitionsfabriken , vormals Sellier & Bellot)

Von 24.10.1945

„Továrny na střelivo, dříve Sellier & Bellot, národní podnik“(überset. Munitionsfabriken, vormals Sellier & Bellot, nationalisierte Betrieb)

Von 7.3.1946

„Zbrojovka Brno,národní podnik, Závod Vlašim, Sellier & Bellot“ (übersetz. Waffenfabrik Brün, nationalisierte Betrieb, Fabrik Wlaschim, Sellier & Bellot). Zbrojovka Brno war in diese Zeit riesigen Koncern.

Von 1.1.1950

„Zbrojovka Vlašim, národní podnik“ (übers. Waffenfabrik Wlaschim, nationalisierte Betrieb)

Von 6.8.1953

„Blanické strojírny, národní podnik, Vlašim“ (überset. Blaniks Maschinenfabrik, nationalisierte Betrieb, Wlaschim). Blaník – das ist Berg und ganzes Gebiet um.

Von 1.1.1981

„ZVS – Blanické strojírny, Sellier & Bellot, koncernový podnik, Vlašim“. ZVS = Závody všeobecného strojírenství, in deutsch Betriebe allgemeines Maschinenbau= etwas als Koncern.(überset. ZVS – Blaniks Maschinenfabrik, Sellier & Bellot, Konzernunternehmen, Wlaschim)

Von 1.7.1989

„Blanické strojírny, Sellier & Bellot, státní podnik se sídlem ve Vlašimi“ (übersetz. Blaniks Machinenfabrik, Sellier & Bellot, Staatsunternehmen, mit Sitz in Wlaschim)

Von 1.5.1992

„Sellier & Bellot, akciová společnost, Vlašim“ (übers. Sellier & Bellot, Aktiengesellschaft, Wlaschim)

Hard for me to follow this, as I have no Czech language abilities, and my German is poor in the extreme. However, I don’t think we have any real disagreement. I gather from the name changes and what is said that this box does date from 1945, but is just what I thought - Post-WWII, which ended in Europe, practically speaking, around May 1945 and perhaps earlier in Czechoslovakia - and therefore likely a cleanup of left over components either for Czech official use, or for commercial uses.

If I am wrong, because I am misinterpreting something, tell me. The only important thing is getting the right answer.

John Moss

I have the same 20 round box. I do not think it is reused German boxes. The Germans boxes had an impressed maker code. Mine does not have such a code. Others will want to check this. The back of my box has hand written:
RAZEK Jan
26.2.46
the diviers in the vox are are not like the typical German which seperate each cartridge but just two strips of corrugated cardboard with the flat cardboard on only one side. Totally different from German separators.

The rounds in my box are hst SBP 7.65.

I think these are made in the immediate post war period. They are clearly not German military.

Cheers,
Lew

sbp 7.65

I agree that they are not German boxes. That is why I used the term “German-STYLE” which I probably did not use often enough. By that, I meant a box of the external dimensions the same as German 16 round boxes. If they were Czech-made 16 round boxes for 9 mm originally, naturally the internal “diviers” would have been changed to accommodate 20 rounds of 7.65 mm, of course. My box, unfortunately, does not have the cartridge-divider element at all still in it. Further, the box is too deep for 7.65 mm Browning cartridges, a design element that points to it being originally a 9 mm box. That is one reason I mistakenly had this box in my 7.65 mm Parabellum cartridge box section, since S&B made that caliber as well. I fully acknowledge now, that it was repurposed for 7.65 mm Browning ammunition, not 7.65 mm Parabellum.

I agree in believing it was made in the immediate post-war period, likely in late 1945.

John Moss

John, How disappointing! It is such a waste of time when we agree…

Thanks my Friend,
Lew

Bob,
The steel primer looks like the German 08/40 steel primers used on 9mm P08 ammo beginning about mid-war. Looks like the labels were printed no later than end Oct 1945, or the printer learned about the name change a bit later than when it occurred,

Lew