20mm ID

Can anybody help ID the x2 20mm rounds referenced in the image as no’s 2 & 3. The image is from another forum but unfortunately doesn’t give details of the types. I believe they are 20x110. I am particularly interested in round no.3 - the one with the white projectile

Thanks in advance

Mark 20mm

#2.3.4.5 are 20mm Hispano cases(20 x 110HS).
#2 is Swiss and # 3 is a ‘stuffer’, the case (marked as SAPIR) should have a black/yellow/blue projectile.The white projectile is likely European Hispano of some sort.

Many thanks. The white projectile #3 is not in my possession but I have obtained an image of it. It appears to have a steel or aluminium plug in the base. It also has stampings ‘11’ and ‘4’ & ‘4’.

As per HS designs this one here could well be an API or the inert TP variant of it.

There were a lot of these white ‘AP’ projectiles ‘on the market’ here in the UK a couple of years ago,all are stamped 111 4 4 and came in cases headstamped LOT 1(and other lot numbers) 81(and other dates ranging from the 70’s & 80’s) 20MM…so far the info I’ve managed to find out is that these cases were manufactured by Kynoch for a contract to BMAR Co who in turn loaded them for a foreign contract as gun functioning rounds…to be honest I don’t think all of this is correct as although white is correct in the UK for gun functioning it probably isn’t correct for other countries and also a ball projectile is used for this purpose, my example is still crimped but has been manufactured completely inert,other examples of this projectile I’ve had are also inert, so maybe a dummy/drill round?.
I’m fairly sure the info on the case is correct as my example did come from a source at BMAR Co.
I have also been told that these are proof rounds used by Kynoch but I think we can forget that.

Tony, as white is “dummy” in Egypt who also used this caliber it could be for them?
When did Egypt start manufacture of 20x110 HS?

Many thanks to everyone for this most useful information,

#2 appears to be an API (2 incendiary charges, one in front of the AP body underneath the fuzed nose cap and one in the rear cavity).

Alex, you are right, that’s a Type RID armour-piercing incendiary with double effect.

1311

EoD, may well have been, I’ve been trying to get ‘exact’ information on these rounds for years and so far all I’ve managed to find out is in my first post,and some of that is doubtful to say the least.
I have ‘broke up’ a couple of these in the past and all I can add is that the aluminium plug is in fact a empty tube and that they ‘come’ either without a primer but with anvil and flash holes or a dummy brass primer and there must have been other loads in these LOT 20MM cases as I have come across fired cases also.

Tony

A surprisingly marked difference in shoulder height between No.3 and the other Hispanos.

A photo of three BM Hispano 20x110 for comparison.
All shoulder heights look normal.

APT. LOT 1 78 20MM Stamped 111 4 4

Inert white projectile. No primer. 2 flash-holes and anvil.
LOT 1 80 20MM Stamped 111 4 4

HEIT. LOT 11 77 20MM Stamped 26 91 9 Fuzed OE 404 BM 044-78CvztqbQUQTOLjwtWKpZOfQ_thumb_4cc

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Ron, great selection you got there! Could you maybe show the hs too?
Interesting to see the AP type from this series also exists as true AP variant.

Seeing the AP-T being dated 1982 (and the HEI-T made in 1979) and with the “non-British service” markings on it appears much like export production.

If round #3 in the top image is original shouldn’t the case side stamp indicate the load?
And does this marking practice square with the projectile which as we see now was made in the early 1980s?
And would this side marking be used on exported rounds which have “non-British” markings anyways?

Also it apears that #3 is a “stuffer” and the case could be a fired one. So maybe not much meaning to the shoulder location.

Hi EOD, the BM marked on the projectiles in ron3350 photo is the ‘late’ marking for BMARCo, now part of British Areospace since 1992,so does tie in with the headstamp and would have been for export…I can comfirm that No 3 in Khanmaks photo is not the correct case for this projectile,side stampings were done on 50’s English Hispanos and this example should have a SAP-I( R ) projectile in it

Tony

Also it apears that #3 is a “stuffer” and the case could be a fired one. So maybe not much meaning to the shoulder location.

But the shoulder of the “fired” case is lower than the others - wouldn’t it normally be higher, as a result of case expansion in the chamber?

I will take photos tomorrow as it is almost midnight here.
The rounds were live and I pulled and reshaped the mouths for a tight fit.
Story was they came from a docked ship in Queensland from the Brunei Navy.
I got a nice 30x170 HEIT also by BM dated 84 at the same time. No proof of story.

TonyL, this is what I thought. Thank you for clarification.

Tony Williams, is there a way where the cartridge was fired from a different gun maybe (having a different, feeding/ignition/chambering regime)?

Ron, interesting!
Maybe you can also show the 30x170 in a separate thread?

Here’s a sectioned example of the RID/API round:

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hello
for tony.williams:

in the past i had a 20mm hispano fired case with this lower shoulder
remember some of the headstamp 20 Mle 38-M49 lu 49 …
but maybe nothing about the explication of this lower shoulder