20x105 question


#1

I have a 20x105 live round, which I can post a h/s drawing of tomorrow. The projectile is at least an AP round, maybe more APT, APIT?? Projectile appears to be overall black or dark blue with a white band at the copper rotating band. H/S is dated 1939. Would these rounds be anti-tank rifle rounds also? Or multi-purpose?

Thanks
Steve


#2

Is the case belted or rimless?

If it’s belted, then it’s the “Short Solothurn” round which was mainly used in the widely-sold Solothurn S18-100 series anti-tank rifles, although it was also used in the Lb 204 developmental aircraft gun.

If it’s rimless then it’s for the MG 204 aircraft gun (a developed version of the Lb 204) which saw limited use in some Luftwaffe flying boats / seaplanes.


#3

Thanks Tony!

My round is belted, so the anti-tank version. Is it AP, API or APIT?

Thanks
Steve


#4

Not sure offhand; there were several different variations of AP projectiles for this case, all given girls’ names for some reason, but I can’t lay hands on a colour code.


#5

Tony, the names are beginning with the letters the projectile type is abbreviated with.

For example:
PauLIne = Panzer Lichtspur = AP-T
AnnaLIsel = Anschuss Lichtspur = TP-T
etc…


#6

EOD - this is an honest question, no a correction, since you speak German and I do not. I have never seen “tracer” spelled in German as “Lichtspur” before. Is this a modern spelling. I have always seen it as “Leuchtspur.” Is the latter an archaic spelling, or is there a technical difference in the projectiles defined by the different spelling.

Pardon my ignorance. I really strive to use foreign (to me) names correctly, and I am confused on this one now.


#7

Steve,

Can you see remnants of a ‘HA’ monogram stenciled in red on the projectile or as part of the headstamp (eg. 19 HA 8 39 20m/m 320)? If so, my guess is that it has a base fuze (AP with HE charge).

Paul


#8

Yes on the H/S is the same except “320” mine is 321

Steve


#9

[quote=“JohnMoss”]EOD - this is an honest question, no a correction, since you speak German and I do not. I have never seen “tracer” spelled in German as “Lichtspur” before. Is this a modern spelling. I have always seen it as “Leuchtspur.” Is the latter an archaic spelling, or is there a technical difference in the projectiles defined by the different spelling.

Pardon my ignorance. I really strive to use foreign (to me) names correctly, and I am confused on this one now.[/quote]

John,

Alex is correct on this.
Lichtspur is an official term used in government “language”.
Still today…
You can see this in the following link, whereas the BAM (Bundesanstalt f


#10

Forensic - I know he is right! He speaks German; I do not. I was just wondering if the term “Leuchtspur” is still correct for a tracer cartridge, or if it is considered archaic. Languages change with time. In English, we don’t use “thee” and “thou” in everyday conversation and look upon its use as odd, but it is still good English, simply archaic, in American English anyway.

Is one wrong gramatically today to use the term “Leuchtspur?” That is my real question.


#11

John, the term “Leuchtspur” it is perfectly fine German language as it is being used in parallel to “Lichtspur”. This word is being used by literally everybody to designate a tracer while I think the term “Lichtspur” is more seldom to be encountered but as Forensic is stating a fully recognized word.
The German Army for example is using today the term “Leuchtspur”.
The term “Lichtspur” if I remember right was actually the “first” German expression for tracers which turned over the years into “Lechtspur” but this will need some study of old documents to be confirmed I think.


#12

Thanks EOD - that’s exactly what I wanted to know. I didn’t want to continue using the term “Leuchtspur” if it was actually completely out of use in modern German. I wish I was better with foreign languages, but I try to get things like spelling and usage correct when I write anything.


#13

[quote=“EOD”]Tony, the names are beginning with the letters the projectile type is abbreviated with.

For example:
PauLIne = Panzer Lichtspur = AP-T
AnnaLIsel = Anschuss Lichtspur = TP-T
etc…[/quote]
This is an interesting way of naming projectile types? Were these “code names” so enemy intelligence would not know what they were referring to? What is the full list of names?


#14

Falcon, I think in those days it was less about confusing the enemy since the designations were given by the manufacturer of the ammunition. But I also have to admit that I do not know the real reason for these designations. It may be that abbreviations were not very popular in those days and somebody invented this system.
I had a list of the names somewhere but do not remember where - I am over 30 so please allow me not to find my stuff.
If I find it I’ll post it and hope someone else may be faster than me.


#15

Allow me:

Anna = ball/practice
Lina = tracer
Selma = HE
Liesel = HET-SD
Paula = APHE (base fuze)
Pauline = APHE-T
Pauline Blind = AP-T

Weights were in the 132-145 gram range
This info, plus drawings of cross-sections of the projectiles, is in Labbett & Brown’s “German 2cm Cannon Ammunition 1935-1945”


#16

Thanks Tony, so what are the proper projectile names that they stand for?


#17

That’s all Labbett & Brown say about the designations. I suppose the alternatives will be the usual German names for HE, AP…


#18

Tony,

Does the book give a color code for the black [or deep blue] projectile with a white band? Is it APHE base fused???

Thanks
Steve


#19

The APHE-T had the nose portion of painted black, with the rest of the body coloured yellow. You probably have have an AP-T, which was black with a yellow band forward of the driving band.


#20

Thanks Tony!!

Steve