221 Remington necked down


#1

Here is a 221 Remington necked down to 3.65 mm
Is it an experimental trial or a wildcat ?
Hstp : RP 221 Rem
Thanks
JP


#2

It looks like a .14/221 Walker Wildcat.


#3

It is a pity I don’t even remeber where I got this one.
I have to be carefull and be absolutely sure because I have also a lot of experimental military trials on commercial cases (even the regular 221 I have is military !) and because of two movings ctges have been mixed.
What do you think Ray ?
jp


#4

JP

The 14/221 Walker is a common wildcat cartridge going all the way back to the 1960s. Rifles were made and sold by the Walker Machine Tool Co. in Kentucky. Even today, the sub-caliber guys like to play with it in Contender pistols.

As to a military connection, The US Ord Dept experimented with 12, 14, 17, and 18 caliber cartridges as part of SCHV (Small Caliber High Velocity) program but I’m not familiar with many of the cartridges that they tried. I do know that some of their tests used the factory 221 Rem cartridge so there is a possibility that they simply necked the case to the smaller calibers or maybe even used wildcats obtained from people like Walker. Plus, many of those early pioneers such as Gustafson and Davis, had access to standard reloading presses and it was common for them to make up a few cartridges for whatever project they were working on at the time. It would be difficult to ID legitimate test cartridges since they would look exactly like wildcat or factory cartridges, including headstamps.

Generally speaking, if a factory such as Remington altered a case they would also change the headstamp so as not confuse things. The 222 High Velocity made from the 221 is a good example. The altered headstamp reads simply R-P.

You said that you have a 221 with military connections. Which one is it? How do you know it is military?

Ray


#5

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]JP

You said that you have a 221 with military connections. Which one is it? How do you know it is military?

Ray[/quote]

yes,
I have an IMP ctge for Air Force dating from the late sixties
it is a 221 loaded with a 5.56 M196 tracer bullet
no painting on tip
hstp : RP 221 REM
jp


#6

[quote=“jean-pierre”][quote=“Ray Meketa”]JP

You said that you have a 221 with military connections. Which one is it? How do you know it is military?

Ray[/quote]

yes,
I have an IMP ctge for Air Force dating from the late sixties
it is a 221 loaded with a 5.56 M196 tracer bullet
no painting on tip
hstp : RP 221 REM
jp[/quote]

JP

That is a very good cartridge. I do not have one. Do you remember where you got it?

Ra


#7

Ray,

JP probably got that from me. The AF bought a 20mm or 30mm ammo can full of .221 fireball ammo in M16 stripper clips for the IMP program (4 selective fire, bullpup survival weapons-Vietnam era work). The cases were loaded by Remington (commercial cases) with 5.56 ball and tracer bullets (no tip color). There were 2-4 tracers per clip. The tracers are unmarked and only identifiable by the slight difference in the weight of the loaded round. There is yellow lettering on the top of the ammo can which is the closest thing there is to a “box label” that includes the contract number and some other stuff if I remember. If people are interested, I will dig it out and take a photo and post it, or write it up in the IAA journal. This is a project driven by Dale Davis, Jack Robbins and Nunzio Zummo when they worked in the AF Armament Lab at Eglin AFB in Florida.

Does anyone have a photo of the IMP weapon???

Does anyone have a Thompson Contender in 221 Fireball??? I have wondered what I was going to do with all this stuff----but it doesn’t take up much space and doesn’t eat anything.

Cheers, Lew


#8

lol!
you are right , I got them from you Lew !
It was the great time when I was collecting experimental staff !
jp
ps : you didn’t reply to my topic on unknown 9 para.


#9

[quote=“jean-pierre”]Here is a 221 Remington necked down to 3.65 mm
Is it an experimental trial or a wildcat ?
Hstp : RP 221 Rem
Thanks
JP
[/quote]

that’s got to fly! Remington came out with the .17 Fireball in a commercial load in 2007, which is a 221 Fireball necked down to .17" !
lets see ? .17 = 4.32mm so .365mm must be about .143"
Smoken!!! I would quess over 5,000 FPS ? better have a chromed barrel for that one.
Nice Job!


#10

[quote=“Lew”]
Does anyone have a Thompson Contender in 221 Fireball??? I have wondered what I was going to do with all this stuff----but it doesn’t take up much space and doesn’t eat anything.

Cheers, Lew[/quote]

Lew, I have several .221 Fireballs…really a neat cartridge to shoot. I would be interested in that stuff.


#11

[quote=“IHMSA80x80”][quote=“Lew”]
Does anyone have a Thompson Contender in 221 Fireball??? I have wondered what I was going to do with all this stuff----but it doesn’t take up much space and doesn’t eat anything.

Cheers, Lew[/quote]

Lew, I have several .221 Fireballs…really a neat cartridge to shoot. I would be interested in that stuff.[/quote]

Lew, The best place is the T/C custom shop in Rochester, NH, as a used barrel sells for about the same as a new one. I believe that is only a Custom shop item. I will be up in that area next week hopefully ? their web-site below: tcarms.com/customShop/chart_ … pistol.php
Best,
Dave Call


#12

[quote=“A Call to Arms”]that’s got to fly! Remington came out with the .17 Fireball in a commercial load in 2007, which is a 221 Fireball necked down to .17" !
lets see ? .17 = 4.32mm so .365mm must be about .143"
Smoken!!! I would quess over 5,000 FPS ? better have a chromed barrel for that one.
Nice Job![/quote]

Dave

Actually, the 14/221 with a 15 grain bullet only got up to about 4300 fps. :)

Its big advantages were little recoil and better than average accuracy.

Its big disadvantages were short barrel life, loud muzzle blast, difficult to manufacture barrels, hard to keep clean, hard to make bullets, not always reliable bullet expansion.

More minuses than plusses which is why you don’t see too many 14 (and 12) caliber rifles.

Ray


#13

[quote=“Ray Meketa”][quote=“A Call to Arms”]that’s got to fly! Remington came out with the .17 Fireball in a commercial load in 2007, which is a 221 Fireball necked down to .17" !
lets see ? .17 = 4.32mm so .365mm must be about .143"
Smoken!!! I would quess over 5,000 FPS ? better have a chromed barrel for that one.
Nice Job![/quote]

Dave

Actually, the 14/221 with a 15 grain bullet only got up to about 4300 fps. :)

Its big advantages were little recoil and better than average accuracy.

Its big disadvantages were short barrel life, loud muzzle blast, difficult to manufacture barrels, hard to keep clean, hard to make bullets, not always reliable bullet expansion.

More minuses than plusses which is why you don’t see too many 14 (and 12) caliber rifles.

Ray[/quote]

Ray, Shows you how much better powder has go in the last few years.
Dave


#14

[quote=“Lew”]JP probably got that from me. The AF bought a 20mm or 30mm ammo can full of .221 fireball ammo in M16 stripper clips for the IMP program (4 selective fire, bullpup survival weapons-Vietnam era work). The cases were loaded by Remington (commercial cases) with 5.56 ball and tracer bullets (no tip color). There were 2-4 tracers per clip. The tracers are unmarked and only identifiable by the slight difference in the weight of the loaded round. There is yellow lettering on the top of the ammo can which is the closest thing there is to a “box label” that includes the contract number and some other stuff if I remember. If people are interested, I will dig it out and take a photo and post it, or write it up in the IAA journal. This is a project driven by Dale Davis, Jack Robbins and Nunzio Zummo when they worked in the AF Armament Lab at Eglin AFB in Florida.

Does anyone have a photo of the IMP weapon???
[/quote]

DTIC recently posted a report on the IMP by Stanley Silsby, then working for Colt. It outlines the origins and development of the weapon. The .221 Fireball was originally choosen because it fell in size between the intended chamberings: 5.56mm and an experimental .17 caliber cartridge. The .17 caliber cartridge was evidentally not based on the 5.56mm case.