224 Winchester


Sorting some photos and came across these. I can’t remember if I posted them before, or not. If not, here they are. If I have, here they are, again.

224 Wincester Experimental.

l to r - E1, E2, E2 Steel bullet. Then a 53 grain copper jacket lead core bullet and a 36 grain copper plated steel bullet


You’ve definitely not posted those photos before Ray. What’s the headstamp on the copper-plated steel round?



Headstamp is the same, WCC 58.

The E2 was loaded to 3300 fps while the steel bullet E2 was listed at 3618 fps. This was probably a Winchester attempt to meet the penetration requirement at 500 yards, something that seemed to keep eluding them. Or maybe the requirements were rigged against them, in favor of the Armalite 222 Special?

Maybe Lew can give us his insight on the politics of the 5.56x45?



There are some more to the series. Shown from left to right are the E5 (fatter case & rebated rim), E4 (fatter case), E2 and E1. E3 must exist but nobody seems to be aware of it, nor have I seen a drawing for it. Can anyone help?




Will, are these two ‘WCC 58’ also? If not, what?


Will, Jim

We have all wondered about the E3. Maybe it existed, and maybe it was nothing more than a drawing or an idea. Contractors, such as Winchester would often assign their own unofficial numbers to a series and this may be an example.

Or, could the steel bullet cartridge be an E3? However, an Olin Mathieson C. C. label clearly shows it as 224 WINE2. I also have an E2 type with a hollow point bullet. I don’t know if it’s a fake or real.

I can’t say about Will’s E4 and E5 but all of them that I have seen, including the fakes, have been un-headstamped.



What is the base diameter on the E4 and E5?




No, I’m not Will’s alter-ego but since he lives at the bottom of the world he’s most likely in his napping mode so I’ll tell you what I know and he can correct me later.

The E5 has the 222 Remington sized rim to work thru the Winchester experimental rifle of the trials. The E4, OTOH, has the 25 Winchester case head (T110) which was, more or less, based on the commercial 25 Remington cartridge. No sense in re-inventing the wheel.



Thanks, Ray!

Great thread. Hadn’t run into those two before. Those darn penetration tests must have been a challenge for the folks working with the little .22 calibers!



Seems to me they were only a challenge for Winchester. What is ironic (or maybe moronic is a better word) about the whole episode is that the 224 Springfield/Remington experimental probably could have met or exceeded all of the requirements and was a much better cartridge than either the Winchester or Armalite entries. Then politics stuck it’s ugly head under the tent flap . . .



Ray, I very much like that E2 with the plated steel projectile, havent seen one of those before.


There is a cartridge drawing for the .224E5 in “The Black Rifle”. The drawing was dated April 1963. This would have been far too late for the field trials of the Winchester LWMR. In addition, the .224E5’s COAL was the same as the .223 Remington, so it would have been too long to even fit the LWMR’s magazine. I’ve always believed that the .224E5 was intended as an alternative to the .233 Remington, particularly given the velocity/maximum average pressure issue that had just raised its head in the Army’s latest testing of the AR-15 and its cartridge.

As an aside, some of the LWMR were converted for the FA-XM144 and XM144-WE4 flechette cartridges for Army testing in 1961 and 1962.