25.5 x 194R Hotchkiss ID Needed


#1

I have a rimmed (47.1mm) brass case 25.5 x 194 mm. It has a lime green tipped projectile and case mouth. Headstamp is “MR 2 37 C”. It has some VERY faded inked lettering on the head. I think it says “H 25.5 MM ?? ?? S? 7 23 38”. What is it? What load type? Who made it?


#2

If it’s the big one in the pic below (from the Ammunition Photo Gallery on my website), then it’s the Hotchkiss light tank/anti-tank gun. In French Army service prior to WW2, and also used by the British Army.


#3

Tony–Yup, that’s what it is. Thanks. Any idea what loading the lime green bullet tip and case mouth is or what the MR and C in the headstamp mean? If MR is a British maker, then I would guess the C is for Cordite.


#4

This round for the Pateaux cannon is “charge forte” - high velocity. It is FRENCH manufacture.



I have never seen a British one.


#5

CSAEOD–Thanks for the load ID. The picture you posted showing the base has the ink markings much more clear than mine. Exactly what are the markings? Now that I see a picture, I can read “CHARGE FORTE” on the side, althrough it is VERY faded. Do you know who MR & C are?
Is the 141 g. shown in one picture the projectile weight? You indicate that it is for the Pateaux cannon. So, what is the proper designation for this round. Is it 25x194R Peteaux, 25X194R Hotchkiss or 25.5x194R Hotchkiss?


#6

It is an AP-T and the designation is 25x195R Hotchkiss.


#7

141 grams would be the propellant weight. The projectile weighed 320 grams and was fired at about 900 m/s normally (960 m/s for the Charge Forte).

This is a curious projectile because it is made like an AP rifle bullet, rather than a cannon-type shot.

The performance was quite good, it was capable of penetrating most German tanks at up to 500m in 1940.


#8

Ron

That is a French manufactured AP-T.

MR is Manufacture de Machines du Haut Rhin and C is the brass supplier, Compagnie Francais des Metaux, Castelsarrrazin.

Britain purchased a number of these guns in 1939/40 and most of the ammunition was French, although there is evidence that Kynoch made some. Even so, the use of the letter “C” to identify cordite loaded small arms ammunition had ceased in 1907. Artillery cases continued to be stamped “CF” for “Cordite Filled” right through to WW2.

Regards
TonyE


#9

British and allied troops captured many of these in North Africa from the Vichy French troops. The Germans also captured many of these when they occupied France , used them and also gave them to allies. A lot of them ended up in Finland.

This is a Finnish marked French box with Africa Corps paint. It is a heavy metal box with clam shell design and a spring steel handle.

INTERARMCO imported these guns into the US along with shooting ammo most of which was this high velocity type. The green tip is the most common of this caliber in the US. I have had a couple of boxes like this over the years-all from Finnland and imported by IAC.

You do not want to be near one of these when they fire- WOW are they loud !


#10

Here is just about anything you would want to know about this round from the 1941 German tech/intel handbook.