25 ACP collectors-Read and Weep!


#1

I just received this email from a friend in Denmark.

[quote]Have you ever heard of a 25 kaliber Schouboe, neither have I , but when I emptied DISA´s storeroom, I found several hundred Kynoch produced 25 cal cartridges, with aluminium bullets, unfortunatly the police had an idea that they were tobe destroyed, no pistol has surfaced, on the other hand they will function in any 25 kaliber pistol. Maybe Mr. Schouboe just wanted to try the concept.
[/quote]

I think he perhaps means that the cartridges are aluminum core. Too bad they are gone. I wonder if the Brits have run across any of these.

I have seen a 32 ACP Schouboe pistol in a collection so perhaps a similar cartridge exists in .32!!!

Cheers,

Lew


#2

Hi Lew !
What does mean DISA ??
JP


#3

JP, I have no idea what DISA means. I was only quoting the email I received.

Lew


#4

DISA is a Danish company, which since its formation in 1900 (as Compagnie Madsen A / S) has been producing various metal products.

The company’s main product was the original air-cooled machine gun-Madsen and company were then named Danish Recoil Rifle Syndicate A / S. In 1936 the name was Danish Industrial Syndicate A / S, but popularly called the company still Riffelsyndikatet.


#5

I would have thought the only person who possibly has any information on these Kynoch cartridges might be TonyE.


#6

Unfortunately Vince, I do not think I have any information on these rounds. However, it does not surprise me as Kynoch has long had a close relationship with Madsen/DISA, and did much of the development work for them on their cannon ammunition.

I have a list of known Kynoch drawings so I will have to search through that to see if there is any likely reference.

Regards
TonyE


#7

Gentlemen - I was just looking at my Schouboe 11.35 mm cartridges for a different reason, and that led me to look to see if I had a “Schouboe” file in my firearms files. I have one, although “scant” would be an overstatement of its contents. However, I did have a factory, French-language advertising sheet on the 7.65 mm Schouboe Pistol, on which, among the specifications for the pistol, it shows the complete overall cartridge weight for the ammunition. It is given as “7.7 Grams” (118.8 Grains). To put that weight into perspective, I weighed rounds from three different manufacturers, all of roughly contemporary manufacture to the Schouboe pistol, with the following results:

K DWM K 479A 7.73 Grams
F N 12 7.54 Grams (this round is from 1912)

  • H * K & C 7.46 Grams

These weights probably represent the presence of a lead-core bullet of approximately 4.60 grams (71 grains), pretty much the standard for 7.65 mm Browning (.32 A.C.P.) ammunition, and are a clear indication that at least the production version of the Schouboe 7.65 mm pistol was timed and intended to be used with cartridges of standard specifications for this caliber.

There was no mention of any aluminum-bullet, or aluminum-core ammunition in anything I have on the 7.65 Schouboe. This does not mean, for one second, that none existed. The precedent would be there for such experimentation based on the use of aluminum in projectiles for the 11.35 mm Schouboe (sometimes call the .450 Automatic). The only question that arises is whether or not the police officer that destroyed the rounds understood the significance of a bullet of, more or less, silver color. Virtually all cartridges of the caliber in question of that era were loaded with bullets of CN, CNCS or plain steel jacket, all having a color similar to aluminum.

By the way, I am not confused on the caliber. I know that the thread indicates the pistols were “.25 Kaliber.” I researched everything I could on that subject, and found no indication of production of any 6.35 mm (.25 Caliber) pistol by Schouboe. Of course, that means nothing. Guns made in prototype, the information for which is lost to history, are probably legion. I simply chose to relay this information about the 7.65 mm Shouboe firstly on the chance that the cartridges in question were actually that caliber, and secondly, to fill in here as much of the Schouboe story as I could, which is a very poor offering as it is.

If anyone has any information about a Schouboe in 6.35 mm, and especially a picture of the pistols, I hope they will post it here.

Again, I am not ruling out, even in my own mind, that they could have been aluminum-jacketed or aluminum-core, or even solid-aluminum projectiles. I simply don’t know, and unfortunately, due to this act of official vandalism, we will probably never know. If aluminum, considering where they were found, they probably represented all remaining samples of this cartridge.

John Moss


#8

I was thinking the 11.35 mm Schoube pistol bullets were wood cored to give them the light weight or am I wrong?


#9

Pete, you’re right about the wood core.
Also, the round is for the Rhodes revolver.
M. Rea


#10

The rimless version of the Schouboe cartridge, found with headstamps “DRS 1912;” “DRS 1913;” and “K DWM K 192B” in two versions, small and large primer with slightly different headstamp letters on each (insignificant), was for a very well-known semi-automatic pistol made in Denmark by the Dansk Rekylriffel SDyndikat (later known as the Dansk Industri Syndikat - DISA). To my knowledge, this form of the cartridge has no relation to any revolver, other than the rimless case type was probably developed from the rimmed Danish revolver case.

There is a near identical cartridge, found without headstamp, (there may be headstamped versions as well - I do not collect revolver cartridges and am not conversant with all known variations of the cartridge in question), that is rimmed. Originally thought to also be for an experimental Schouboe pistol, it is pretty certain now that the case type it is a Revolver cartridge. I am not familiar with the name “Rhodes” in conjunction with the revolver, but that could well be its name. I have usually heard it referred to the Danish Ordnance Revolver. It is still held possible that the light-bullet version of this cartridge was for one of the earliest of the Schouboe pistols. I have been able to find nothing to either prove or disprove this, and would welcome documentation about the intent of this specific loading.

Regarding the term “Rhodes Revolver,” the combined version of “Handbuch der Pistolen- und Revolver- Patronen,” by Brandt, Item 159A page 292, indicates that the revolver was the “Danish Ordnace Revolver Model 1865/97 and the so-called Marine-Revolver 1871/82. The Ordnance Revolver was designed by George Christensen and originally fitted for pin-fire cartridges. In 1897, it was modified for use of centerfire rounds.” Brandt also concludes that the light bullet version may have been for a prototype Schoudoe pistol.

The informatio about a “Rhodes” r3evolver intriques me, and I would welcome documentation about it. There is much yet to be learned about both the rimmed and rimless versions of these Danish/German cartridges.

As to the wood core, that is correct. My reference in my previous post about the use of aluminum was in regard to the concave aluminum base plug used in at least the Danish (DRS) version of the cartridge. I have a pulled bullet of Danish manufacture (they have a CN jacket as do the DWM FMJ RN bullets. The open-nose bullet from DWM has a CNCS jacket) that has this core. An article in the IAA Journal #374, Nov/Dece 1993 issue, page 12, indicates this core is 3 mm thick. I also have a DWM loaded round with an open-nose bullet sealed with an aluminum plug. I don’t know if the Danish bullet has this nose plug or not - the nice drawing in the IAA article does not show it - nor even if the DWM FMJ RN projectiles have it, as I have never had one I could cut open.

I should have explained my reference to Aluminum originally. Sorry about that.

John Moss


#11

I left the Forum after my last entry to this thread and started looking through recently acquired information. I recalled that I had received from a friend an SFM factory drawing, number 10,574, on the “Cartouche avec balle en aluminum pour Pistolet Automatique Cal 450,” which according to the specifications shown and the headstamp drawn is the 11.35 mm Schouboe cartridge “K DWM K 192B.” This drawing interested me not only in the fact that it applies an inch nomenclature to the cartridge, which I initially felt could possibly indicate some involvement with England, and also that the bullet is shown as a concave base, solid aluminum projectile, if I am reading the title and the drawing correctly. The bullet portion of the drawing, quite detailed in its measurements, shows no jacket or separate core.

The fact that the bullet is shown as one-piece aluminum has significance for me. I have such a specimen, albeit in poor condition, in my own collection, and quite frankly, had regarded it as likely a fake, which is why it was not mentioned in my last response. The bullet is very rough, almost as if buried in the ground for a time and eroded away in spots. The case, at first glance with poor eyes, looks to be much better than the bullet, but close examination shows it, too, is heavily “marked up” perhaps by an old cleaning, and is split in two plasces and scarred in another. It seems now that this could be a legitimate specimen of the round that appears in the SFM drawing, which dates from around 1908.

This led me to look up, in both issues of the DWM Cartridge Case Index, case number 192. This answered my own question about the “Rhodes (sic) Revolver,” Firstly, while I don’t know what to make of it, the DWM entries also originally refer to the rimmed version of the cartridge as “Revolver Kal. 450.” Interesting, again, that it should bear an inch measurement. However, according to both issues of case number index (two separate copies of the original index were found and both copied), the rimless version is hown as the Revolver Kal. 11.(illegible) Rohde Copenhagen." Note the spelling - it is not “Rhodes” but rather “Rohde” and is attributed to Copenhagen, Denmark, not to any country using inch measurement at the time, as I had first thought it might.

A quick search of likely sources in my own library turned up nothing for anyone named “Rohde” so I am not sure what this information does for our knowledge about the Schouboe pistols and cartridges. Perhaps one of our Danish members can help, and to draw their attention to this question, I am going to ask about Rohde in a new thread.

Although the name was spelled wrong, it was Rea that led us down the path to this information we have not considered before in regard to the whole “Schouboe question” and thanks we thank him for it. As I said before, there still is a whole lot we do not know about the Schouboe cartridges and pistols.

John Moss


#12

Hi John. Years ago I was talking to Jim Tillinghast in regards to the Schouboe cartridge with the wooden core bullet. He told me that the cartridge was for the Rhodes ( sic ? ) revolver . Now, maybe the years have " fogged " my 73 year old brain but, to the best of my recollection that was the gist of the conversation. Please let me know what you may come up with. Thanks.
M. Rea ( Ray )


#13

Perhaps interesting;

unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Schouboe/schouboe.html

Rgds


#14

mdrea - Thanks for the added comment. I think Jim T. was correct, but that he spelled or pronounced the name incorrectly. Both copies of the DWM Case Register (two separate registers - probably each factory that made small arms ammo had one, I would think) spell the name Rohde, which would be pronounced in most European languages as something like “Row-duh.” (Don’t jump on me all my German and Scandinavian friends - that is as close as a grringo like me can come to it). There has to be some connection of the cartridge to someone named Rohde in Copenhagen, or DWM wouldn’t have made that entry. Whether it was a Revolver or not is more troublesome, as I have seen the term “Revolver” encompass auto pistols in European discussion, just as Americans often refer to revolvers as “Pistols.”

John Moss


#15

Dutch - the info on the Schoboe pistols was interesting - about as much as I have seen on them from any single source. I note that there is no 6.35 mm (.25 A.C.P.) version mentioned at all. Of course, that doesn’t mean that no prototype could have been made, but it also further muddies the waters on the already scant description of the destroyed cartridges given by the Danish Police.

John Moss


#16

As all who have read this thread know, I posted another thread with some questions about a certain person named “Rohde” titled specifically to draw the attention of our Danish friends, who responded quickly and with important information. I will try to incorporate the question, their answer, and my own thoughts regarding the answer, on this thread, for continuity, since it has turned into a very good thread of Schouboe pistols and ammunition, thanks to all who have contributed.

I am also not finished researching this. I have some personal emails to write for more information, if available, but I want to get this part done now, while fresh in my mind, and to keep this single reply from being super long. It will be long enough, I fear, as it is, with some verbatim repetition of material from the “Rohde” question I asked.

Our colleague “mrea” led us to more research looking for the significance of the entry “Revolver Kal. 11.35 mm Rohde Copenhagen” under the case numbers 192 thru 192C in the DWM Case Register. The cartridge specifically identified as such is the rimless version - DWM 192B - commonly found as a headstamp on cartridges known to have been for the 11.35 mm Schouboe self-loading pistol.

Having heard in the past that the case number “192B” was actually for a revolver cartridge, and that DWM had simply used this headstamp as a matter of conveninece and similar characteristics to identify the Schouboe ammunition, my own lack of familiarity with early European revolvers left me without motive to pursue that thought, since at the time, I had never seen copies of the real DWM Case Registers (only the reconstructed version).

There is little question that the cartridge DWM 192B in the form as we best know it today was intended for a pistol, not a revolver. We have a 100-round cartridge box from DWM for the 11.35 mm Schouboe cartridge “K DWM K 192B.” with CN FMJ RN bullet, large primer version, labeled only “100 Stk. Skarpa Patroner til Rekylpistol.”

So, the question we posed to our Danish Friends, Mausernut and Torben Ohms, about a “Rohde, Copenhagen,” was if they who this man was.

There answer was illuminating, and indicated to me that while of course the DWM Case Register entries are correct within the scope of that company’s sales records, it is misleading to those of us interested in the history of the guns used with the ammunition in question.

“Mausernut” (Soren) told us that the ame Rohde is not a very rare name in Denmark, and that the records of the famous Tøjhusmuseet in Copenhagen, which I had the distinct pleasure of visiting years ago, did not reveal anything about a man of this name. Schouboe, Captain Jessen, Rasmussen and Madsen were all represented with their inventions, but no “Rohde.”

Soren hit it right on the head when he postulated that Rohde could have been an importer of ammunition (also mentioning that it was possible he was an engineer at DRS involved in improving one of Schouboe’s pistols, after he left the firm. This proved unlikely).

Torben Ohms responded to Mausernut and to me separately, by PM, and told us that “Rohde was a Captain in the Army while he (also) had his own business importing DWM ammunition, inclduing 11 mm and Kal. 25 both for Shouboe, so there’s never made a Rohde revolver.” I have since questioned Ohm about documentation of a Schouboe in .25 caliber, since we still have none at hand. That I will research later in the Auto Pistol Collecting fraternity.

Now, my thoughts on the entry in the DWM case register, and why it reads like it does. Firstly, we have mentioned a propensity for Europeans, especially from the early days of self-loading pistols, to use the word “Revolver” as synonymous to any type of contemporary handgun. Now, the entyr reads precisely “Revolver Kal. 11.35 mm Rohde Copenhagen.” Very short and from the view of DWM, to the point for the room allowed for comment in such a manufacturing record. Read carefully, it says nothing about a Rohde Revolver. It simply gives the caliber of the “Revolver” cartridge, and then mentions a name and location, “Rohde Copenhagen.”

We would suggest that if this entry was written out in a full sentence, using today’s terminology, that it would read. in regard to case number 192B, “This 11.35 mm Self-loading pistol (selbslade Pistole) cartridge was manufactured on contract for the firm of Rohde, in Copenhagen, Denmark.” In short, I believe we have misinterpreted the original, abbreviated entry, something that DWM would not have done since they well knew the style of the entries they made into the Case Register.

This is conjecture of course. There is ZERO way to prove such a hypothesis, as we cannot look into the mind of the person who wrote this entry. However, for myself, I am ninety percent, or more, sure that the interpretation I have made is the correct and a logical answer to this entry; that there was no “Rohde Revolver”; and that the ammunition described in the entry was, in truth, the 11.35 mm Shouboe cartridge.

Regarding the term “.450 Revolver” used with the basic “192” entry in the register, I have no explanation for the use of the inch measurement. However, there is a SFM drawing that also refers to the Shouboe cartridge itself - DWM 192B and complete with a drawing of that headstamp - that is also titled “.450 Revlver cartridge.” I believe that again, the use of the word "revolver’ in that case is a generic descrition of a handgun cartridge.

Again, please post any comments regarding this thread, or the thread asking about Rohde, her, and not on the “Rohde” thread.

John Moss


#17

John, This is a complicated topic and outside anything I know much about, but as usual that won’t stop me from adding my 2 cents and looking dumb!

I have done some digging into a number of DWM catalogs. The results are below:

DMK (Lorenz) catalog I (probably 1878-1889) illustrates case 192 as the ordinary 450 revolver case. 193 is the 380 revolver case and 194 is the 320 revolver case.

DMK catalog #2 also lists case 192 as the 450 revolver

DWM catalog #3 the famous 1904 catalog also lists 192 as the .450 revolver case. The rimless cases 192B and 192C are not listed in this catalog. This makes sense since they were created for the M1907 pistol. The two seperate copies of the DWM case register was apparently created between 1906 and 1908 or perhaps a bit later from a master register used earlier. The entries for the 192B and 192C are identical in the two copies indicating (based on other cartridges illustrated) that they were copied from the original master register and then updated seperately so they were entered around 1907 or shortly thereafter.

I know you are better at German than I so you will have gleaned anything significant from the notes on the case register relative to the 192B & C cases.

DWM case 192 used bullet #39 which shows up in the bullet register and all the early catalogs as a ordinary lead bullet for the 450 revolver cartridge. Note again that the 380 revolver bullet is #40 and the 320 revolver bullet is #41. This convinces me that the DWM 192 case is nothing but the ordinary British 450 revolver case (Chris P and the rest of you probably already knew this—but it was a discovery for me!).

So the 11.35mm Schouboe cartridge is simply a rimless version of the British .450 Revolver cartridge—Guess it shouldn’t be a surprise that the people at DWM and at SFM referred to it as a Revolver cartridge.

The 192B & C cases are listed as using DWM bullets 39C, 39D and 39F. When I check the DWM bullet register, I find four bullets listed in that range.

  • 39C is an open tip, flat tip bullet with the core exposed. I think it says that the jacket is CN coated steel and the core material is listed as “H”, probably for holz or wood.

  • 39D is another open tip design with a CN coated steel jacket but with an Aluminum core

  • 39E is a roundnose bullet with a closed tip with a CN jackt and a wood core

  • 39F is another RN bullet with a CN jacket and a wood core with an Aluminum base plug.

No question that the early 11.35mm Schouboe cartridges came from DWM with both wood and aluminum cores.

I also checked the 25ACP and 32ACP entries in all three DWM registers and there was nothing of relevance to this discussion.

Cheers,

Lew


#18

Lew - I agree with youon some points. I cannot comment on the .450 British Revolver question. I would prefer, though, to say that the Schouboe is a rimless version of the 11.35 mm Danish Revolver cartridge for the Model 1865/97 Revolver. My first question would be “which British .450 Revolver?” The case lengths especially, and other measurements as well, are very much all over the landscape, according to those I have looked up. I have based my comparison on the Erlemeir-Brandt No. 454 :.450 Short C.F." I say this because while the 11.35 rimmed Danish cartridge could fit in with .450 English Short Revolver measurements of your choice, those measurements are all over the landscape, Further, there is a box label for the 11.35 mm Danish Revolver round from 1919 pictured in the July 1976 Issue of “Gun Report” magazine, on page 29. Interestingly, it is a reverse misuse of a firearms descrition already discussed here, in that it says “6 Stk. skp. Patroner til PISTOL: 1865/97.” Here, the word “Pistol” is substituted for the more correct “Revolver.” Still further, neither the DWM case log for 192, nor the SFM drawing clearly showing the rimless cartridge along with a picture of the “K DWM K 192B.” headstamp, while calling the cartridge the .450 Revolver in both cases, use the word English or British anywhere that I could find. It is interesting you broght this up, because correspondence with Chris Punnett has just led me to find Rohde’s name again, and realize that identifying him has been discussed in various tracts before, although not on this Forum. As to whether or not DWM intended the 192 to be the English .450 Short, I don’t know. Out of my experience, totally. I just think using it as the basis for the 11.35 Schouboe Rimless skips a step in the evolution of the cartridge. It is nit-picking, I am sure, but then, that is what pissants like me do.best, I guess.

Firstly, it is clear to me that the 192B headstamp is caliber-specific to the 11.35 Schouboe cartridge. Any other form of the headstamp 192 is irelavent to the Schouboe Auto Pistol question, but of course, not at all irelavent to the total discussion of the 192 series, Rohde, and separating out the Schouboe cartridges from the other 192-series rounds.

After being led to certain publications, all of which were in my own library, by Chris Punnett, I have found Rohdes name again, this time in connection with the DWM Case Number 411, which is shown as “Kal.11mm Rohde Kopenhagen.” It is a totally different cartridge than any of the 192 series, and only relavent here in that it makes me even more sure that the explanation of the entry for DWM 192B interpretation,that I offered, and was lead to by our Danish friends Soren and Torben, is accurate. The use of Rohde in conjunction with DWM 411 clearly, to me anyway, simply shows that the rounds were made for him (his company), and does not imply the existence of a revolver of his design at all.

As you have said, Lew, it is also clear to me, and really always has been, that the rimmed version of the Schouboe 11.35 has nothing at all to do with the Schouboe auto pistols of itself; but rather only in that the Schouboe rimless round is simply that revolver case adapted to better use in an auto pistol by removal of the rim, etc. I now doubt that any of the early Schouboe prototypes was chambered for the rimmed version.

Now, if I can just find someone who knows something about a Schouboe 6.35 mm pistol!?

John Moss


#19

[quote=“Lew”]
The 192B & C cases are listed as using DWM bullets 39C, 39D and 39F. When I check the DWM bullet register, I find four bullets listed in that range.

  • 39C is an open tip, flat tip bullet with the core exposed. I think it says that the jacket is CN coated steel and the core material is listed as “H”, probably for holz or wood.

  • 39D is another open tip design with a CN coated steel jacket but with an Aluminum core

  • 39E is a roundnose bullet with a closed tip with a CN jackt and a wood core

  • 39F is another RN bullet with a CN jacket and a wood core with an Aluminum base plug.

Lew[/quote]

Hello,
Where is the monolithic aluminium bullet ??
I don’t understand anymore
JP


#20

JP, DWM did not list a monolithic aluminum bullet for case 192B or 192C.

John, I disagree that case 192 is a Danish revolver case since it is listed (192, 193 and 194) with the other two “normal” British revolver cartridges. Clearly DMK Lorenz added all three to it’s register at the same time.

It is also clear that the 192B case—clearly intended for the Schouboe automatic pistol—was viewed by DWM as simply a rimless version of the British 450 revolver case rather than a new development since that is how they listed it in their register. It is like the 45 M1906 and the 45 M1908 cartridges which they also distinguished by letter codes which were added at about the same time frame as the 11.35mm Schouboe. I’m not asserting that 192B is not a different caliber from the British 450 revolver, but DWM in 1907 did not view the difference sufficient to justify a new register number.

Cheers,

Lew