I have a .25 Auto, aluminium case, headstamped F C 25 AUTO, nickled primer. The bullet is a truncated solid brass with a large, deep hollow point. I obtained this round about 1986. Anyone know what it is.
This is the MSC Load (Maximum Sub Caliber) from Aron Lipman’s firm Personal Protection Systems Ltd. According to their literature, it has a MV of nearly 1200fps from a 2-1/2" barrel, and the bullet was not designed specifically to expand, but rather “it was designed for maximum bite in bone to minimize richochet. Further it was designed to tumble upon impact like modern assault rifle bullets to maximize its terminal effect.” Words in quotes are directly from their literature, not my own opinion of what this bullet does or doesn’t do. It came in packs of 9 rounds for 14.95, hugely expensive for when it came out.
The headstamp has no significance. PPS used available brass. I have the copper-bullet rounds, as I recall, in several headstamps.
Something in Federal Law, some sort of ruling that I have forgotten, made them change it to a copper bullet. The earliest sheet I have showing the change to copper is dated December 1, 1986. That was probably a true indication of the changeover date, because I have a sheet dated
December 3, 1985 that still describes the round with a brass bullet.
Personal Protection Systems was at 101 Pittston Avenue, Scranton, Pa 18505. I don’t know if they are still in business. I have heard nothing about them for years. They had other “special loadings” as well.
John–Thanks for the ID. Now that you have done so, I remember it. Of course when George Kass and I had Forsenic Ammunition together 1980-1988, we sold all this special purpose stuff, and, of course, I have it all stashed away. Last week I was sorting out a closet that was packed up 15+ years ago and found 3 big boxes of all this stange stuff, but I can’t remember exactly what most of it is anymore, thus, the series of questions recently (and more to come).
Did you see my post a few days ago about the Remington .45 Auto with the R----P (extra long dash)? Any ideas about that?
I seem to remember several other versions of this round as well, made out of machined copper with a plastic cap in the hollowpoint; I think there was a Maximum Major Calibre (45 Auto), Maximum Auto Pistol (9mm), and a Maximum Pocket Pistol (32 or 380 Auto).
John–Yah, those other names strike a bell with me too. I’m sure they are all in one of these boxes. Just haven’t got to them yet.
The one with the plastic cap you mention, if it is a copper colored cap, is the Geco BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) I think.
Then there is the Tunnel bullet (if I rememer correctly this was by Neautlizer Co.) which is a copper shell, no nose closer and a gas check at the back to keep the powder in that falls away as the bullet leaves the barrel making the bullet just a hollow cylinder open clear through.
Ron - I am not sure that anyone has figured out what all the variants of the R-P headstamp are about. We have them with no entry between the R and the P, short dash, medium dash, long dash, dot R P dot, RP right together with no dash, and on and on. I have inquired of many people related in one way or another to Remington Arms, and if they know, they aren’t talking. Remington is one of the most secretive of all the companies about things like this; I don’t believe it is because they don’t know themselves. They are even secretive about things from the UMC days!
The “tunnel” bullet you’re thinking of was the PMC Ultramag, originally made of bronze, but then of copper (after bronze was deemed a “bad” material in the “cop killer bullet” ban); there’s a sectioned and whole Ultramag in this picture, between the 5.7x28 FN and the Remington metal-piercing rounds.
Yup, that is the one I was thinking of. Thanks for the proper ID.
BTW, that is a GREAT bunch od sectioned rounds. I wish they were all mine. I think I have all of them as loaded rounds, but not sectioned.
Could anyone explain to me how a projectile with a huge “cave” in the mouth (which probably produces a lot of air resistance) stays intact after entering the target? I’d expect it to mushroom since the walls are so thin.
Here’s a couple PPS MSC .25 auto brass projectiles that have been fired through a barrier (not sure what exactly). I think these were fired through wet phone books or possibly wood:
The brass is hard enough that only the thin tip around the hollow rim deforms very much. The base provides the more solid punch to aid penetration, while the brass construction also ensures decent penetration for such a small caliber. PPS only used brass on the .25 auto to help it get up to what a typical .32 or .38 might achieve in penetration, supposedly creating a .25 auto “wonder bullet”. The word “intact” I think just means that the bullet will not tear apart into multiple pieces
Lipman reportedly got busted by the BATF and did a prison stint.
100% True story…he was selling smg parts and other items out the back door and bullets out the front. …he was kind of a weird dude met him 3 times…and so was howard angel the valet,velex,exammo inventor and seller…he to was selling odd items out the back and ammo out the front …hmmmm
also these brass msc versions when loaded with the correct amount of powder (some were not) do have a ap effect on aramid…in fact they were better in our tests than the ball shaped ktw 25acp.
Thank you all for identifying something in my collection that I had no idea what it really was. I have 2 of these bullets in R-P cases.
The only other .25 Auto I have is a HP copper bullet but with a tiny little hole in a otherwise RN bullet. The h/s is; N(9 o-clock) CCI(12 o-clock) R and 25 AUTO(6 o-clock). No clue what the N R means. Case appears to be aluminum.
Your CCI is a factory round made by the company (Originally, years ago, known as Cascade Ammunition Inc.) of Lewiston, Idaho. These rounds used to be Berdan primed, and due to various short-comings of aluminum cases once fired, the are not reloadable, which is what the “NR” Means - Non Reloadable.
The ammunition is decent. People report jams with it - I haven’t had much of that problem in .25, .380, 9mm and .45. I think some of these reports are myths from people who haven’t shot the ammo but thru prejudice towards the case material figure it “might” jam a lot. If it were not good ammo, it would not have stayed popular on the market for almost twenty years now.
Dang it! You’d think I’d figure out that N R code! I’ve missed that before and it did not sink it.