30-06 Flash Tube cases, box markings


#1

It’s been a few years since I posted this question on the Forum. I haven’t gotten any smarter but I’m hoping maybe one of you has.

These are 30-06 cases that have been converted to a flash tube ignition. Both boxes that I have are marked the same way.

Anybody have any idea who made these and what the marking on the box top may mean?

Ray


Interesting western 35 newton brass
#2

Ray,

I don’t have much time now but I’ll answer more tomorrow (incl. Pictures).
As far as I know, these were experimental front ignition primers for the Duplex loads.
Can you pls post the H/S.

Thanks
René


#3

Rene

The hs is SUPER SPEED 30-06 SPRG.

I was told that these were made for commercial trade during the era when frontal ignition and duplex loads were being touted as a big improvement over the standard primer and flash hole. Several big names were thrown around as possible clients including Elmer Keith, Rocky Gibbs, P.O. Ackley, etc although there is no evidence to indicate they were the intended target. Probably more of a sales pitch than anything else.

I have several other examples of flash tubes, but they are easily identifiable by their construction and the cases they are used in, such as the 50 FAT MAC and other 50 caliber competition cartridges. They are usually of the type shown below.

Your insight, as always, would be appreciated.

Ray


#4

RAY:
TIME TO WAKE UP THE CHICKENS!!! YOUR EMPTY CARTRIDGE CASES APPEAR TO BE .30-06 OKH. I SUSPECT THEY WERE INTENDED TO BE .33 OKH BUT NEVER HAD THEIR NECK EXPANDED OR LOADED. THE LETTER “O” STANDS FOR CHARLES O’NEIL, THE LETTER “K” STANDS FOR ELMER KEITH, AND THE LETTER “H” STANDS FOR DONALD HOPKINS. CHARLES O’NEIL PATENTED THIS CARTRIDGE MODIFICATION ON 6 JANUARY 1942, U.S. PATENT No. 2,269,316. I SUSPECT THAT HE IS THE INDIVIDUAL THAT MODIFED THE NEW EMPTY CASES WHICH HE VERY LIKELY BOUGHT IN BULK. THE LOADED .33 OKH CARTRIDGE USED .333 JEFFERY BULLETS. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THESE 3 GENTLEMEN ALSO LOADED DUPLEX POWDER LOADINGS IN .30-06 BUT I HAVE NO RECORD OF THAT. IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY THERE ARE 2 OTHER HEADSTAMPS WITH THIS CASE MODIFICATION. AS FOR THE WRITING ON THE BOX I CAN’T HELP YOU. IT MAY HAVE BEEN ADDED BY A COLLECTOR SOMETIME IN THE PAST.


#5

GWB

I’m very familiar with the OKH cartridges. I did research the possibility of the cases being made for OKH cartridges, particularly the 333 OKH which used the '06 case… But, my understanding is that O’Neil gave up the idea of duplexing the '06 sized cases because they were not as successful as he had hoped and he had loaded them only in very limited experimental quantities. He sold his interest in the Duplex Cartridge Company along with his share of the patent.

I seem to recall that I looked up the patents filed by O’Neil and his drawings showed a different method of attaching the tubes. Can you give a direct link to the patent that has the screw-in tube? I did a quick Google of the number and there are so many hits that it would take forever to sort through them.

One collector told me that he thought the cases were made by Luft Brothers in WA. He said they were made for Rocky Gibbs. I doubted that Gibbs would have cases made (rather than making them hisself) but I did visit the old Luft Brothers shop in Spokane and spoke to the people there. Unfortunately, they were new to the business and none of the old-timers were still around. So, they couldn’t help. That was many years ago. I’m not sure the shop is still there. Charlie O’Neil died 50 years ago but if I see him in cartridge heaven I’ll ask him and report back. ;-)

Thanks for your response.

Ray


#6

BTW, I should have noted for those not familiar with duplex loading - it does not mean mixing powders or loading different burning rates in layers. In OKHspeak it means loading one powder in a case modified with a flash tube so the charge is ignited near the middle to top of the charge.

Duplex loading does mean something different in military terms.

Ray


#7

Here is a paper from 1972 on this subject. Part of a graduate study at the US Naval Graduate School:
Velocity and Pressure Effects on Projectiles Due to Variations of Ignition Parameters dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/757278.pdf

Lots of ‘technical stuff’ but a few good diagrams and discussion. I’ll leave it to you guys to sort it out!

Brian


#8

Brian

Thanks for posting that link. I’ve had a hard copy of that report for several years but no link to pass on to others.

It’s noteworthy that 70 years after the OKH experiments and 40 years after the army tests, small arms ammunition is still loaded in the conventional way. The time and labor needed to manufacture the duplex cartridges simply didn’t result in enough gains to make the concept feasible. And, as Charlie O’Neil and Rocky Gibbs both found, gaining that extra bit of velocity was far easier by simply going to larger case.

Ray


#9

I don’t have too much to add after what has been written so far, but I’ll share
a piece that I have in my collection. I purchased this some years ago at SLICS
from a well-known collector. I couldn’t find anything about SAECO on Google
when I did a quick search.

The H/S is: SUPERSPEED 30-06 SPRG

Can anybody tell me what the CAC after Pasedana stands for
Could it be that the last sentence is: FR - Tom Dunn ( maybe: from Tom Dunn ?)
But who is he ?

Thanks
René


#10

Cac is actually Cal., like in Pasadena,California


#11

Rene

Thanks. SAECO is a possibility as the manufacturer.

What you saw as CAC is actually CAL (California). The address was Pasadena 8, Cal. That was the old way of designating postal zones in large cities. (Edit - Vlad beat me to this one.)

I’m sure the last notation means From Tom Dunn. He was a very well know cartridge collector. One of the pioneers. If the cases came from his collection that would add a lot of weight as to the maker.

SAECO was a large shooting/reloading tool manufacturer, distributor and retailer in California after World War II. If John Moss is reading this he can tell you a lot more about them.

If SAECO did make the cases it would be a big help in dating them. But, I still don’t know what the hand written note on the box means. Any ideas?

Thanks again to all who responded to my question.

Ray


#12

René

Can you measure the inside diameter , outside diameter and length of the flash tube ?

Possibly the end of a drill bit could approximately measure the inside diameter.

Don’t worry if you don’t have the tools or might damage that fine display .

Just curious .

Glenn


#13

cheers
René


#14

Out of curiosity, I measured the flash tube in my cases. The measurements are essentially the same as what Rene posted.

O.D. .125"
I.D. - .059"
Length inside case - .920"
Total length - 1.000"
Thread - 40 TPI

What was more interesting was that I found another case in my collection. It has the same dimensions but is headstamped WESTERN 30-G-1906. I cannot recall where or when I got this particular case.

Ray


#15

RAY
THESE CASES ALSO EXIST WITH A SUPER-X HEADSTAMP. COLCART LISTS ALL THREE VARIATIONS ON HIS CARTRIDGES FOR SALE LIST. I THINK YOU ARE CORRECT ABOUT LUFT BROTHERS IN SPOKANE ALTERING THE CARTRIDGE CASES. THERE WAS A BUSINESS CONNECTION BETWEEN ELMER KEITH AND LUFT BROTHERS.


#16

Thanks guys !

Interesting stuff -there is a reason for that question …

Glenn


#17

Ray et al: I am much older than young John Moss. Visited the SAECO company in 1957. SAECO stands for Santa Anita Engineering Co. According to R.M. Modisette the owner they got the name from the Santa Anita horse race track which as I remember is either on or near Colorado Boulevard. They made an electric lead pot still have and use mine, Lead ingot and bullet molds and a powder measure. The last catalog I have is dated 4/56 but they were there longer than that. Do not remember them mentioning the duplex cases. Probably a special order job.
Gourd