30-06 M1909 style blank with removed HS


#1

30-06 M1909 style blank with removed HS?

Joe


#2

Rene? Anyone? A guess would even be fine at this point.

Joe


#3

The Germans (DWM) did this sort of thing on 7.9’s, sometimes even re-stamping in the groove. And here in the US Century Arms did it with pistol ammo.
But an 06 blank, sounds a lot of work for nothing.


#4

Pete, thank you.
The primer annulus sealing even looks similar to the DWM 7,9’s you refer to, which I have example of, but I also cannot figure an M1909 blank??? Well, it stays in the German box for now.

Joe


#5

Joe,
I have no idea. My first though was a movie blank but then why would somebody go through the trouble of removing the headstamp. Not much help, I know.

Cheers
René


#6

Found another exact M1909, but I can read this headstamp. W W SUPER 30 06 SPRG

Odd round with dark purple primer annulus sealant and a ring crimp.

Centennial Cartridge Co. I understand bought brass from Amon Headstamped “Browning” and they milled off the HS in a similar fashion before loading the casings, but no ring crimps or primer sealant on those. Also no M1909 blanks made by them that I am aware of.

Joe

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#7

interesting variation but still no idea who made them


#8

Is it a groove for a special bolt to prevent it from locking on loaded ammo?


#9

Interesting… Could be, as it is a possible ceremonial round used in ceremonial rifle.

Thanks,

Joe


#10

Grooves like that on cartridge heads, especially those where you
know a headstamp was obliterated, are normally just a product of
milling away most of the headstamp to cancel it. I do not believe
it has an special function, like the grooves found on 8 mm Lebel
rifle cartridges, etc.

I remember reading somewhere, so time ago, that the DOD could
no longer supply .30 Model of 1906 blanks anymore for use by
VFW and other Veterans Organizations for ceremonial use, usually
meaning the firing of salutes at the burial of military veterans. These
could be made up for that. The regular military now uses M14 7.62 x 51
or M16 5.56 rifles for that, but the Veterans organizations normally use
some variety of the Model 1903 Rifle, or M1 Garand rifles for ceremonial
salutes.

John M.


#11

John,

Maybe I am missing your point, but what would be the purpose of going thru all the trouble of milling a HS off a M1909 blank? Who cares what the HS is?

Joe


#12

Wasn’t there a firearm provided by Britian to India that had the shells with the same groove. The bolt had a matching ridge that would prevent them from firing regular ammo. The Brits did this to control the arms, IIRC.


#13

Joe - You had mentioned that the round was ceremonial, and I assumed
it came from a source in the US such as an American Legion or VFW
post. In the US, I cannot answer your question to me because I, too,
don’t see the sense in going to the trouble either. In Europe, there are
laws about headstamp identification on cartridges. I have a bunch of
9 mm rounds - reloads - out of Norway, that were loaded for export by
3D. The earlier ones simply have the headstamp cancelled with a ring
stamped through the markings; the later ones, likely because that was
not found satisfactory under CIP regulations or the importing country’s
regulations, actually have a big “3” stamped on the left side of the
headstamp and a big “D” on the right side. That is also why we have
cartridges with military headstamps with no caliber marking, that also
have that information and the seller’s mark printed on the side.

I have no idea whether or not those type of laws in Europe apply to blank
ammunition as well.

Frankly, that cancellation on the base, the milled groove, and the black primer
seal if I am seeing it right on my screen, looks more like something from RWS
or DWM. I had similar cancellations of original headstamps just like that
blank from both companies, when I had my 7.9 collection.

Can someone provide some insight into how the groove on the base could
function to prevent the firing of ball ammunition in a rifle of any type? I can’t
figure that out. I am not questioning whether or not there is such a function; I simply cannot
understand the dynamics involved, unless the rifle’s firing mechanism was somehow
changed, and even then, I can’t picture how anything like that would work. I am as
interested in the guns that fire cartridges as I am in the cartridges themselves. The
two subjects cannot be divorced from each other in my view.

John Moss


#14

Maybe the Greener Police shotgun?

From Guy Hildebrand’s web page The Cartridge Collector’s Exchange: http://www.oldammo.com/pictures.htm

“The modifications included a smoothbore 14 gauge barrel with a 12 gauge chamber that was bottlenecked to 14 gauge, and a firing pin with three points that would project out of the front of the breech block when it was fired; a shorter center point struck and ignited the primer, while points on either side of the primer extended into an annular groove that was cut in the head of the shotgun shell around the primer pocket. If a shell that did not possess the annular groove in it’s head were to be jimmied in to fit the chamber, it could not be fired because the outer points of the firing pin would hit the surface of the cartridge head and not allow the center point to make contact with the primer.”


#15

John,

Thanks for your thoughts. I said it could be a “possible ceremonial round used in ceremonial rifle”. It came out of Steve’s duplicates I bought off him. I do not have his notes or his actual collection I thought I had purchased, long story… Not for an open Forum.

Anyways, Yes the primer annulus color with the ring crimp is a deep dark purple - black. In the AZ sunlight it compares to FN best or yes RWS/DWM. The W W SUPER headstamp is what has me stumped. I compared it to the other 2 milled away duplicates I have and now they speak to me saying also W W SUPER. This does not appear to be a reload either.

Very odd.

Joe


#16

Yes, thanks!

It would be trivial to weld bumps on the front of a bolt to prevent it from closing/locking on a regular round, but would fit into these machined grooves on the blanks.

It’s not anywhere as pronounced as the greener grooves though.


#17

So cool, Winchester made blanks with commercial headstamps.


#18

jestertoo,

Well, we do not know that. It might be someone obtained some new Winchester Western brass and then made M1909 blanks out of it. Whether they, or someone else removed the HS, is also unknown.

Joe


#19

Brian - Thanks for the explanation of the firearms modification. I can
see how that would work. Simple solution, but likely one to pretty-much
a non-existing problem. Still, interesting for sure! Had never heard of
it before.

John


#20

John,

Well maybe somewhere around the globe there is or was a ceremonial unit that were issued rifles in such caliber, but the higher ups did not want the rifles to have the capability of chambering any other round than these with the milled head. So the bolts might have had protrusions in the face as explained.

Just thinking out loud.

Joe