30-06 plated steel


#1

30-06 plated steel. All magnetic except last one with blackened dummy primer has GM projectile. Both with dummy primer have a single rattle slug inside. Numbers appear to be hand stamped. I feel maybe Springfield Armory?

Good luck on these Ray!

Joe






Drilled hole with brass anvil showing inside, I know, bad picture. It is not a fired primer.


#2

Joe

I have no idea. I know only a little about Cal .30 but even less about 30-06.

I’m sure that one of our 3 resident experts will ID them for you.

Ray


#3

My gut says “home made” due to the coarseness of the lathe marks and the appearance of the copper plating… I would love to be proven wrong…

AKMS


#4

Hi Joe,

no idea. I have never seen cases marked like this.
what disturbes my a bit is the fact that there are three different primers used (nickel, brass and a blackened).

Sorry I can’t be of any help
René


#5

I don’t know if this has anything to do with your items but them seem to have somethings in common with each other. I purchased these at the Live Auction at SLICS back in 2006 (item #3189). All 3 are plated steel cases. Here is all the information I have.
Hope this helps.
Zac




#6

Zac,

Thanks. Yes, I would agree they look to be from the same manufacturing source. As far as Gordon manufacturing them, I seriously doubt it. He passed in 2004, but in his early days he worked on weapon designs when he was in the US Army like the Thompson look alike simplified Ingram Model 6 in 1950 or so. He even designed some civilian style rifles, but everything was in pistol calibers from what I understand. It takes some serious machinery to flow large rifle casings from slugs. This would not be a made in a small business or workshop like SIONICS that he worked for in 1969 or even Military Armament Corporation where he worked in 1970… I feel strongly he acquired them from another source.

Joe

Edit: Just one note, the insides of the empty casings are drawn not machined, otherwise I would have said there was a possibility of someone machining from bar stock. The base along with primer pocket and flash hole were machined however.


#7

Zac, very interesting information, I didn’t know that these came from the estate of Gordon B. Ingram. Since the late 1970’s, he was involved in many special ammunition developments, including manufacturing, and in the late 1980’s, when he founded Ingram Engineering Service, he also developed some unique calibers like the Ingram Magnum series, saboted projectiles, and grenade launching cartridges. Regards, Fede.


#8

Fede,

Do you know of any large rifle calibers he had designed or manufactured?

Joe


#9

Sorry guys, I wish I could give you some more information on these. However the only info I have on them and Mr. Ingram is what I posted earlier which is what was in the auction listing at SLICS. I have not done any investigating at all since acquiring them. I almost forgot I had them and only after looking at this thread several times did I remember them. I only bought them at the auction because for some reason at the time they must have tickled my fancy.
Sorry I wish I could be of more help. I now know far more then I had this morning thank you.
Zac


#10

Zac,

Do you have any idea of who wrote the note? Was it Vic Engel?

joe


#11

No, Vic doesn’t deal with the auctions. If it was the live Friday night auction Will Ayde-White probably wrote out the card. Although, looking at the date now, I’m not sure who did the research and cards back in '06. Might have been Steve Fuller. It does look like his printed work.


#12

I will look around as I am pretty sure I still have the auction list somewhere.
As far as the manufacturing of these cases goes the listing does not say who made them only that they were part of Gordon Ingram’s estate. However as a machinist, reloader & gun crank I am quite sure that I could turn cylindrical cases on my lathe, and then with some annealing and some standard sizing dies, neck them down into 8x57 Mauser cases. I also think this is part of the reason why these cases are plated with Nickel & Copper. As it would act much like a lubricant and aide in the necking/sizing of the cases.
If we could see inside of one of these cases we would be able to tell for sure if they were drawn or turned on a lathe. I would be willing to cut one of them in half to see.

Zac


#13

[quote]Fede,

Do you know of any large rifle calibers he had designed or manufactured?

Joe[/quote]

Joe, sorry, I don’t have any specific information about rifle calibers that he may have manufactured. Regards, Fede.


#14

Zac,

Like I stated previously. “The insides of the empty casings are drawn not machined, otherwise I would have said there was a possibility of someone machining from bar stock. The base along with primer pocket and flash hole were machined however.”

I am very savvy when it comes to things like this. I can tell forgings from castings and drawing and swaging from machining when it comes to metal, glass or plastic. I have no way of taking pictures of the inside. I have a bore scope, but not the camera attachment.

Joe


#15

Joe,
I misunderstood then. I took it that you were saying you didn’t know if they were drawn or turned. I was only suggesting that I would ruin one of my cases so that we could see the inside of one of them in order to find out which way they were made.

Zac

I think I somehow missed your edited comments


#16

Zac,

Please do not section one of the rounds you pictured.

Email sent via xjda68@hotmail.com.

Joe


#17

My impression at first glance was that these were done by Gordon Ingram.
He did other case types which were straight, but I’ve not seen .30-06’s. However the finish, tool marks & stampings look exactly like his other known production.


#18

Pete,

Thank you very much. That is what I needed to know. Comparison of other known examples of what he had produced.

That sums it up for me. He must have had access to the machinery necessary to draw out a 30-06 casing or he had all casings made for him and had done his own heading work on a lathe…

Joe


#19

Pete,

Do you by chance have any of the cartridge cases that you could post pictures of for comparison?

Brian


#20

Great Thread!!!

A few points to add. First Steve Fuller had access to a good deal of ammunition and components from Gordon Ingram’s estate My guess would be that he put these in the auction.

I did receive a sabot 9mm bullet with a steel core and unheadstamped case that reportedly came from the Ingram estate.

In 1973, I visited Jeff Werbell, the son of the owner of MAC/Sionics. That evening he opened a ammo storage room in their home and showed me some of the interesting stuff. That was the first time I had seen the 6 round tin of the HE 45ACP rounds made for the US government. He had lots of very interesting stuff. One that I remember was a wooden block with holes drilled in it which contained 9mm cases with bullets in them. The block would hold about 20 rounds and there were about 10 in it as I recall. What struck me is that all had a single number headstamp, though I can’t remember if some had more than one number. I remember that there were no two alike. Jeff told me they were development items and a set for some purpose. I don’t recall what. I thought they were brass cases, but the light wasn’t great. The photos by Joe and Zac remind me of these rounds. I wonder if they were actually steel cases.

I tried to talk him out of one or all of these with no luck that evening, though I did leave with some interesting items. These were something special that he couldn’t let me have. Not long after I went to the UK for a tour and lost track of Jeff. About 8 years ago, I looked him up again, but he is long out of the ammo business, though he did have a few ammo cans of old leftover MAC ammo that I looked through. The rounds above were not part of that, and Jeff could not remember them when I asked about them. Apparently they were long gone. Maybe they have no relation to the items Joe and Zac are talking about.

Cheers,
Lew