30-30 Win. Brass Stages of manufacture

Hello, long time firearms collector, shooter, hunter etc, new to this forum and hoping to gain new knowledge.
I have recently come into possession of a couple of manufacturing process teaching displays? One is about 12 small envelopes of each stage of brass manufacturing for Remington arms 30-30 Winchester brass. The first is just a brass slug, and they move progress through the stages. I have not seen another, and curious or the rarity. I also have one for the .38 Special that also includes the Bullet production stages.
The Manila factory envelope is discoloured when you open the flap showing some age, but there is also felt marker on the envelopes. So I know they arent 100 years old.
Any info sure would be appreciated.
Havent figured out yet if I am able to post pics.
Sincerely

If no one on This site has knowledge on these, it may be rarer than I thought?

Howdy Rob & welcome

Yes a lot of us have knowledge of these but it seems your asking for a value of something unknown / as we have no written description or photo of it. That it might be correct or complete, or incomplete or miss matched or even the time period of it, it’s impossible to answer.

What’s my Winchester worth?

As far a photo - JPG format, click & drag into the post. Although as a first time user I think you are only allowed 1 photo. Make it nice and sharp & crop so we can see detail. The headstamp you can write & tell us which pieces are headstamped.

Also we are not really all that keen on pricing things for folks who only want to sell them on the net, not saying you doing that, but a lot of stuff we get questions about has that goal.

I appreciate your reaching out Pete, and although most collectors are interested in knowing what their items value may be, I have not asked for a value.
I am also not sure what the portion “Whats my Winchester worth” is related to?
I will try and post a pic of the brass as you suggested, Thank you.
I’ve been reading through the forum here and there are some very knowledgeable folks here, its a great resource!
Thanks for your help.

Howdy Lever89,
your asking what your draw set is without an explanation of other than it is in envelopes & is 12 pieces is asking what a Winchester is worth or is, just saying I have a Winchester .30 W.C.F. rifle what is it worth or what is it.

Your 2nd comment on rarity brought money into my reply, as I said a lot of folks only care about value & I apologize if I implied that was your reason for asking.

It is most likely not a teaching tool, unless it was mounted and labeled. Most likely is was something given to the original owner who had the chance to see the production line, make notes & take samples or perhaps from a worker on the line who did the same.
Often these are not complete, a stage or two skipped or somehow mixed over time.

30-30 prod stage all stages pic 30-30 prod stage headstamp

Hard to get them all in a single pic, but I think this may work.
Oddly, i never noticed until today that these are all in RCMP ballistic evidence envelopes…
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Not much detail in your photo but it may well be almost complete but flash hole not formed and not sure about rim undercut. I think this headstamp came into use in the late 1950’s early 1960’s.
10 & 11 look swapped & i don’t see a #12. No idea if that is #9 or ? your showing in the photo of the headstamp either.

9, 10 and 11 have the undercut, and no 11 actually has a primer inserted and a visual from inside the case shows that it has the flash hole. Should there be a #12?
I limited the pics as I was under the belief that i could only post 1 or 2 as a new subscriber to the forum.
Both 9 and 10 have the headstamp with no flash hole, but with primer pocket.

You said “about 12 envelopes” is your first post, so…

Actually I don’t know how many total stages Remington might have used to complete a .30 W.C.F. perhaps one missing would be the flat piece of brass the 1st cup was drawn from. But it might have just been punched and cupped from a sheet. Again an unknown to me.

A photo of the pieces straight down on them in order, without the envelopes & close together. would have provided a more informative view.

Usually pieces are drawn then trimmed, then necked, trimmed, headed or perhaps headed before necking / trimming. If you use a finished round in comparison to the pieces you should be able to see the progression.

A complete set would include the trims plus the bullet draws and a complete loaded round. But it seems you might have a complete case draw set.

The progression is obvious in person, pics are often difficult to give a good visual example when there are many pieces. As a reloader of many many years, its interesting to see the slug stage progress.
To the original question, how often do these surface? Although i have been in the firearms world a long time, ive not stumbled upon another. Does anyone have a set? Or know someone with a set? Would like to see how others lay out.

Draw sets are relatively common in cartridge collections. In my own collection, I have 28 draw sets, defined here as 3 or more pieces from one set, ranging up to complete sets with both cartridge case and bullet draws. I have many more individual pieces, kept for curiosity, or in some cases, because that is all I have representing that particular cartridge. One of my best .45 auto and 9mm Para “cartridges” are single, unfinished but headstamped cases from draw sets. Four of my 28 draw sets are on factory-made framed displays, two from PMP of South Africa and two from PPU, of Serbia.

Any individual draw set, that is, for a specific caliber from a specific maker, might be scarce. In fact, under that consideration, they probably all are. But, again, draw sets in general are not rare, or in my view, not even scarce, among collectors. Until I started cartridge collecting, I had never seen one in my life, as a shooter, soldier, reloader, etc.

They are interesting though.

Edited after taking notes in my collection.

John Moss

Thanks John, the 38 special set I have also has the projectile series as well which is a neat addition.

These “stage of manufacture” items are usually called “draw sets” by collectors, and while not something everyone sees every day, there are a lot around, and as John Moss noted, they are quite interesting.
Sometimes they are given out as souvenir items, other times they are for reference by engineers or designers to evaluate how a process or tooling is performing. A minor change in any stage of the process (tolerances, metal treatment, lubricants, temperatures, etc) may effect the resulting product, so such sets are pulled aside frequently to check for changes- either a single step, or a complete set. A “complete set” may vary depending on if they just pull samples showing the different major steps, or step A followed by being washed, annealed and lubricated before being drawn again in step B- so you could have two cases or five.
I like military ammo and see draw sets less than 50 years old priced modestly- maybe $10-20 range, more if it is cases and bullets, even higher if nicely factory mounted and labeled.

I don’t think a .3–30or .38 Special draw set would be a high dollar item, but probably have a lot of interest to shooters. Now, if you find a circa 1870 draw set for .44 Henry rimfires, you would have people fighting over it and throwing money like crazy.

I think John S is right on in his comments, especially on values. I found two more draw sets in my stuff, one of which was a gift to me on a visit to FN, in Liege, Belgium, and is 7.62 NATO. It has one odd feature, that may have been an accident. It includes two different-size flat brass discs, and two cups, obviously formed from similar discs. Why it would have two of each in completely different diameters is beyond me. The second set could be called “half a draw set,” since all of the case pieces and bullet pieces are Sectioned halves. It is .30-06 and from Lake City1951.

My best draw set is a 9 mm Para one from Switzerland, given to me by one of the officers of a gun club in Treyvaux (Maybe misspelled) as a gift years ago. It is 26 pieces, including case and bullet, one of which is the trim off of one of the drawing steps, another is an inert primer cup painted red, and a third is a complete dummy cartridge, marked “INERT” on the case, and with one of the all-red primers.

Not all collectors care about draw sets. I, personally, find them very interesting and a nice addition to collections. I save draw sets in calibers I don’t even collect, although I once gave away a 5.56 x 45 ADI Australian draw set to a collector to whom it meant more than it did to me. I don’t really actively search them out, but have come across a lot of them in 57 years of collecting cartridges.

John Moss

Lever,
Attached pics of a couple of my Draw Sets, both from different companies in Europe.
It was common for visitors on guided tours of ammo plants to be allowed to take or be given the individual stages which they could mount up as I have done with these two.
Some factories even sold these sets already made up.
Jim

jim, nice…but the caliber from the FNs is wrong…The description says 7.62x36…but it is 7,62x39

Thanks for sharing! I should place on a display as well. But the RCMP evidence envelopes they are all in is part of the interest maybe?

Forensic,

You are right of course, a typo on my part !

I am getting too old for this !!!

Jim

Howdy Rob
The RCMP envelopes are an interesting part of this set.
I’d guess a RCMP forensic person had a tour or contact at Remington & stored these in those as a reference. But as I say just a guess.

They are yours but if they were mine I would definitely not put on a display. They didn’t come that way from the factory, you could arrange them in some kind of a display, but as history has the problem of loosing facts I would permanently mark it in some way as “homemade”.

I see boards with shells metallic & shot gun, with logos by prominent makers that are totally homemade but very well made & thus offered for sale at big bucks. Out & out blatant fakes to someone who knows but will most likely sell to fill a man cave somewhere & will be most likely passed on as genuine from “Pete’s collection”, as he only had real stuff.

Here’s another board. Headstamps are VPT 30 & the 20 inch wide board is slightly cropped in the photo.

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Pete, what a great board!!!
Can you tell us the headstamp?