.30 cal Raufoss?!


#1

This seller is known for exaggerating the origins of his components and hyping up the qualities of the projectiles, but here he shows a dissected projectile that is similar to the .50BMG Raufoss, but in .30cal. Did Lapua actually load a .30cal Raufoss, and if so, why would they end up here in the hands of a “gun-show loads” guy? Is this just the crafty handiwork of somebody making these projectiles stateside?

http://v2.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=184355916


#2

hello
the view of sectionned projectile is look similar to “beobachtung” 7.92 german or “ZP” 7.62x54r
the internal of 12.7 MP raufoss is different


#3

Yeah, I had wondered is all those were just resized Russian PZ projectiles. Anybody have a section image of a PZ?


#4

Russia repainted!

ammogun the latest and official designation is “PZ”.
“ZP” is an army designation obsolete by 1941. The “PZ” air force designation was taken over then for all services.

Matt, just ask that guy to produce Raufoss documents showing this design and ask him why the Russians made these in the 1930’s already. The seller is a blatant liar.


#5

Here’s a picture of a sectioned round.

Paul


#6

Thanks Paul. - Nice section!


#7

Here is the reply I received from the seller.
Interesting in that it offers no proof at all to his claims.
You may judge for yourself.
Gregg


Dear Gregg,

The foloowing now appears with the Raufoss ammo auctions that I have up and will appear with the bullet auctions starting next week (can’t modifiy auctions that already have bids on them).


Special Note:

I have had some emails as of late regarding these rounds and the corresponding Raufoss bullets that I have up for auction. It seems the internet/office-chair warriors are split on their opinions and beliefs of support for or against whether or not .30 cal. (.308 dia.) Raufoss is real. Individually answering has become quite time consuming and I feel the best way to approach the subject is by relating my thoughts and considered opinion along with each auction.

Let me begin by saying I am no “babe in the woods”. I have been collecting and involved in the ammunition world for around 25 years now. I have seen a lot (real, not real, original and not original, etc., etc., on and on). At this point, I have acquired quite a sharp eye for spotting the little details that help make a determining difference.

As I have already stated with each auction, I was for many years a firm believer that the ‘gun-show’ rumor of .30 cal. Raufoss was just that a rumor and that they did not exist. When I found these rounds I was intrigued but very skeptical of the badly worn dual color paint on the tips that happened to be the correct paint colors for Raufoss (white and sea foam green). I have had some people email me (very violently I might add) believing that these bullets are old, re-sized German 7.92 ZP (.323 dia.) or Russian 7.62x45R PZ bullets. I admit there is a real resemblance to the old Russian PZ bullets of certain years (though the design and make-up of PZ has changed somewhat throughout the years); however, the Russian bullets are .311 dia. and the bullets I have are .308 dia. and do not have any of the little tell tail signs that would suggest they were ever anything but .308 dia. bullets.

As for design, I suspect that speculation on this matter will most likely run wild forever in the internet forums. I can say that I have dealt with ammo (in detail) from all over the world and that very much includes ammunition of all types from Finland, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland. This certainly wouldn’t be the first time that a design or military product came from this region of the world that was sold to both sides or was resurrected, re-designated or otherwise re-packaged after the collapse of the Soviet Union and sold to the West. This area of the world has a definite history of supplying as well as using weapons and ammunition from both sides.

To sum it up, based on my years of experience and what I observed of the original condition of these rounds and bullets (before cleaning and re-spec), I believe them to be original, made to .308 cal. bullets and legitimate in their tip color denoting the western designation of Raufoss. They are definitely, factually, the most complex .308 dia. bullets ever made and (in the case of the .30-06 ammo) are loaded in the precise manor typical of Lapua manufacture. If they are a design originally used by another country under a different designation that is not all that uncommon and to me even a bit more intriguing. In the end, anything can be debated until the end of time but the bottom line is the same as for anything in life… one must avail themselves of the information that they believe is pertinent to a subject, form their own opinion and make their own decision.

Best Regards,

R.P. Morton

(Deuce45s)


----- Original Message -----
From: “Japlmg” user2user@gunbroker.com
To: “Deuce45s” Deuce45srpm@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:00:18 PM
Subject: Question regarding GunBroker.com Item 184355916

A message has been sent to you by a user of GunBroker.com, please scroll
down to the MESSAGE FROM USER section below to read the text.
THE “FROM” NAME ON THIS EMAIL IS THE SENDING USER’S GUNBROKER.COM USERNAME.

REGARDING ITEM: 184355916 20ct., .30 cal. / 308 REAL Raufoss Bullets -
RARE!
v2.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte … =184355916

— begin message —

Sure those are not repainted Russian “PZ” projectiles?
The section projectile looks like the diagram in my refference book.
Gregg

— end message —


#8

Wow. That guy is simply amazing.

Is the green/white tip color (on legitimate Raufoss rounds) a Raufoss code or a NATO or US color code? Was there not a plain green color code as well?

AKMS


#9

I don’t know what kind of bullets this clown is selling, but they are clearly not copies of the .50 Raufoss Mk 211 bullet. Check the site below for a drawing for the real Raufoss bullet construction and a description.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211

I was told the USAF tested the Raufoss in 20mm for aircraft use. I understand the unique aspect of this explosive, incendary, AP bullet is that it requires no fuse on detonator or striker (which is clearly shown in the clown’s photo). Instead there is a grit in the filler that is compressed toward the outside of the projectile when it is spinning, but as it quits spinning it the filler (and the grit) decompress. When compressed the grit makes the projectile pretty sensitive and if it hits something it will detenote but decompressed it is very safe to handle. In fact, I’m told fired 20mm projectiles have been picked up off the range and reloaded and fired again and they function just fine and are bore safe. This information didn’t come from collectiors but from engineers involved in the testing at the Armament Lab at Eglin AFB.

As even the clown could see if he bothered to check, his bullets bare no relationship to the Raufoss design. It is a shame that he is capable of posting an auction but apparently incapable of a simple Google search to figure out whether he actually has Raufoss bullets.

Cheers,

Lew


#10

[quote=“Lew”]I was told the USAF tested the Raufoss in 20mm for aircraft use.
[/quote]
The USAF’s standard 20mm ammo, the PGU-28A/B SAPHEI, is actually based on the Raufoss Multipurpose.


#11

I couldn’t resist and bought 10, when they come one will be sectioned and posted. Could this be the Pomeroy 1940’s green tip made by WRA? Have been fooled before! (By the way don’t buy FN APIT from GB, paid $10 for just a tracer!)
Real nice section Paul Smith.


#12

“Internet opinion is split” he says? Yeah right. All he has to do is cut one of his many PZ bullets open to see they are the same. What is preventing him from checking? I firmly believe that he has at some point acquired a crate of 7.62x54 API and another batch of PZ and he is tumbling / resizing them to some degree and repainting them all himself. The “estate sale” thing is laughable. He also lists 7.62x39 Lapua “original” black tip AP… I think all of his listed USGI API silver tip is just reworked Russian stuff.


#13

Matt

Take a deep breath (I know a guy like this can make you nuts)...I’d love to expand my fake drawer ...or remanufactured drawer with all his gun show stuff...in fact his descriptions are more priceless than the rounds

I wrote to wolfgang...I want to buy one (we need to make up a buyers group to add these “wild” rounds to our collections for those of us in need of a single or double (one to section)

Pepper


#14

Wolfganggross

Well, at least you confirmed what I thought to be the case with 7.9mm FN 1969 APIT!! See:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7678


#15

It might be also worth to note that Raufoss is using tombak jackets on it’s projectiles. The 7.62 is definately clad steel.


#16

Tony, Thanks!!! Shows how long it has been since I have been in touch with the Lab at Eglin.

Lew