.30 Carbine Blank question


#1

The normal Cartridge, Blank, Carbine, Cal. .30, FA T1 (79) (which Ray just posted a nice picture of on another thread) and the Cartridge, Carbine Grenade, Cal. 30, M6 both had 5-petal mouth closure crimps. What are these with a 3- petal crimp?
Are they Grenade launchers or


#2

Phil

That’s a nice cartridge. I wish it was mine.

If you’ll look in HWS II, they mention another loading of the T79 that used a “tighter rose-cimp closure . . . which was also colored red for identification.”

I’d bet that’s what you have and Bill W. could probably verify it for you.

Ray


#3

Phil

I don’t want to hijack your thread but I thought I’d move my photo over here so that guys won’t get lost searching for it.

T79 Blank left, and M6 Grenade right

Ray


#4

Ray
Good idea!!
What’s the headstamp on your T79 by the way? I have F A 45 & WCC 43 listed are there more?


#5

Phil

I’d have to dig it out but it’s LC 43 or 44 as I remember.

HWS refers to a WCC 43 headstamp for the “tighter rose-crimp” version so it would appear that they were using whatever cases were available at the time. But I suppose that is SOP for Blank cartridges.

I just found it and it’s LC 43.

Ray


#6

Phil

I have a list from another collector and he shows the following:

FA 47
LC 43
LC 44
LC 4

Ray


#7

Thanks Ray


#8

Ray - they weren’t just using any case for carbine grenade blanks. The carbine grenade blank is a purpose-driven case, longer than cases for the ball ammunition and other loads. To my knowledge, during WWII, only Lake City and Western Cartridge Company made them for serial production. I honest don’t know off hand if any other company even made them experimentally. HWS II would tell us that, I’m sure, but no time right now to go downstairs and look it up. In 1946 and 1947 at least, Frankford Arsenal made the 3-lobe style blank. Mine is dated 46 and I have had ones dated 47. I don’t collect dates so opted to keep the earliest one. I don’t know of any U.S. officially -made Grenade blanks made after the mid-1940s, even though the device was used widely in the Korean War. Probably there were plenty on hand.

I have never seen any official U.S. military salutory blank (noise blank) in this caliber. Not sure that they ever made one. There are, of course, movie blanks, and lots of foreign blanks. I cannot say for sure if any of the foreign ones were off-shore contracts for the U.S. or for the use of the countries that made them. Like many weapons, the use of the M1 Carbine was quite spread out, by countries, after WWII.


#9

John

We’re getting Blanks and Grenade Cartridges mixed up again.

HWS II specifically refers to the T79 Blank made in at least two variations of crimp. Headstamps on known specimens seem to range from 1943 to 1947 and include FA, LC, and WCC.

Since the development of the T79 wasn’t authorized until June 1945 (HWS II) it’s apparant that cases from prior years were used. That’s what I meant when I said they used whatever was availble.

HWS also says that Grenade Cartridges were made by FA, WCC, LC, and EC.

We really need HWS III !

Ray


#10

Ray - I am not confused at all by blanks and grenade launching cartridges. While the initial cartridge dated 1947 shown on this thread may be a blank (I simply don’t know, but have reservations about that - you are right - we do need HWSIII desparately), most of the cartridges being named on this thread are grenade blanks, probably M6 variety. Unfortunately, some confusion comes from the fact that HWSII does not show a picture of an M6 grenade launching round. They show various experimental rounds leading up to it. The FAT1 blank cartridge they do picture has the shape of every grenade round I have taken out of sealed packages, and those grenade blanks from labeled packages are the rounds I am discussing.

The grenade blank was adopted in 1943, and I believe that all of these WCC and LC dates being discussed here are M6 rounds and not blanks.

Firstly, HWS discuss blanks only briefly, and in a context that seems to me indicates they were primarily experimental. Secondly, I never saw a training blank for the M1, M1A1, M2 or M3 carbines while I was in the Army, even though I was armed with an M2, in a peacetime “training” situation for 18 months (if soldiers aren’t fighting, they are “training”). Secondly, I have never seen a box for U.S. 30 Carbine military noise blanks other than the experimental-type labels in HWS. If someone has a serial-production type box for M1 Carbine blanks (not Grenade rounds - they are common and we have all seen these little packages), please post a picture of it here.

I will repeat, I do not think the cases represent random use. I believe they are grenade blanks probably made by the companies whose headstamp is on the case and contemporary to the dates on the headstamp. I will gladly accept any proof otherwise. Woodin clearly states which factories were assigned production of these grenade cartridges, and they match the headstamps found on the cases. It is pretty clear that Lake City was the primary producer, I think.

Regarding the EC grenade blank, I forgot about that one, primarily because I have never seen one in my life and never been able to find one for my collection. I don’t know how many were made - HWS don’t say - but I suspect that it wasn’t many, because they seem to be rare as the dickens. Again, if anyone has a picture of one and the headstamp, please post it for all of us. I don’t think many of us will ever see it in person, unless we visit some premier .30 Carbine collection. If I am wrong, and they are as common as the other M6 types, someone please send me one.

Just to complete this, while I do not collect dates in .30 Carbine, I have in my own collection, in rose-bud crimped U.S. military cartridges (you guys decide if they are blanks or grenade launching rounds), the following headstamps, all common, I suspect:

FA 46, LC 43 (2 different), LC 4 (three different); LC 45, WCC 42 (open crimp just like LC rounds); WCC 43 (tight mouth crimp). Again, I don’t collect dates, only other visual differences (letter size, letter spacing, crimp shapes, primer seal colors and primer cup types, etc.).


#11

In the Office of the Chief of Ordnance Publication


#12

By the way, another point about .30 Carbine blanks. FM23-7, "U.S. Carinbe Caliber .30 M1 and M1A1, War Department, 23 April 1944, lists only the following issue types of ammunition for the carbine:

Cartridge, Carbine, Caliber .30 M1 (this is the ball round)
Special Cartridges for Launching grenade and ground signals
(1) Carbine grenade cartridge M6
(2) Auxiliary grenade cartridge M7 (this is the little booster charge)
Dummy Carbine cartridge caliber .30 M1
Carbine tracer cartridge, caliber .30, M16

No training blank is listed, nor are they listed in a 1960s version that of this manual that I have. My opinion remains that the blanks, as opposed to the grenade cartridges, were not an item of issue during WWII, and probably not from at least the end of the Korean War until the phasing out of the carbine.

Since we’re on the .30 Carbine cartridge, Ordnance Field Service Technical Bulletin No. 23-7-1, perhaps the first issue manual on the M1 Carbine, dated March 17, 1942, shows only one type of ammunition for the Carbine and makes a point that there is only one type, the Cartridge, Carbine, Caliber .30 M1. Interestingly, the headstamp shown in the manual is the WRA .30 SL headstamp. Nifty manual - shows all the original parts - grooved mag catch, checkered safety button, wood stock and handguard with no opening at all at the operating rod, etc.

As a side note, the only use of the carbine I have ever seen in firing salutes were by Marines aboard ship as casualties were commited to the deep (Lord rest their souls). They were fired with live, ball ammunition, according to a marine I asked about that. I had noticed in movies of these solemn and heart-breaking ceremonies that the weapons clearly ejected the cases automatically, and without any device on the muzzles, which is what brought the subject up. Of course, they had the whole ocean as a safety zone.


#13

John

I think what Phil just posted should confirm that there were, indeed, Blank cartridges and a BFA device developed. It’s also clear, to me at least, that the first prototype cartridges looked exactly like the M6 except for the tip color. HWS II pretty much re-iterates the OCO Publication.

I think where there is still some confusion, other than the nomenclature and semantics, is that neither I nor Phil ever said that Carbine Blanks were adopted or issued. The T79 never got past the “T” stage. So it’s not at all surprising that you never encountered them.

This all started on another thread where a comment was made that Carbine Blanks were never made.

Ray


#14

No question that blanks were made. My original “jump in” was on the grenade blanks that by then, were the ones, whether those posting knew it or not, that were being discussed (reference the various dates being mentioned), and the fact or belief that they were loaded on various cases, not necessarily by the case maker, with which I don’t agree.

I agree completely that some blanks were made, I just don’t believe any, or many, or for very long, were SERIALLY made for regular issue. It is a truism that whenever one says a certain thing was never made, someone else will know that they made a few experimentally. That is not a criticism, but rather an appreciation of their knowledge.

Well, its been a good discussion I think, and for the begining carbine round enthusiast, with some good information. Someday, aside from a couple of failed pistols and a Caribbean SMG, I’ll have to figure out why I collect .30 carbine in my auto pistol/SMG round collection.

I hope someone can post a picture of an EC-headstamped grenade blank. I would still love to see one, and better, to find one.


#15

Found this info. Specific to U.S. Assume this was what was inventoried for issue to the troops. Not all inclusive(note include). Only “issue” ammo, High Pressure test and dummy rounds. Note they authorized the Grenade Launching Cartridge for use as a Blank, as being discussed in this post’s context. Guessing the powers that be decided the apparent duplication of a “blank” round in addition to the M6 proved unnecessary. It seems the Dutch and Germans, in the late '50s, were more inclined to use blanks for training as noted by their concocting their own BFA. Haven’t been able to locate anything on their loading blanks for this. Wondering if they may have just used the M6s.

Ammunition types
.30 Carbine
The ammunition used by the military with the carbine include:
*Cartridge, Caliber .30, Carbine, Ball, M1
Cartridge, Grenade, Caliber .30, M6 (also authorized for other blank firing uses, due to a lack of a dedicated blank cartridge)
Cartridge, Caliber .30, Carbine, Dummy, M13
Cartridge, Caliber .30, Carbine, Ball, Test, High Pressure, M18
Cartridge, Caliber .30, Carbine, Tracer, M16 (also rated as having an incendiary effect)
Cartridge, Caliber .30, Carbine, Tracer, M27 (dimmer illumination and no incendiary effect)


#16

As long as I


#17

Anybody else notice the 4 Revisions on the M6 drawing? In 6 months!!! The T79 drawing is obvioulsy the “MOD-0”. Any later, revised specs/drawings for it?


#18

[quote=“slick rick”]It seems the Dutch and Germans, in the late '50s, were more inclined to use blanks for training as noted by their concocting their own BFA. Haven’t been able to locate anything on their loading blanks for this. Wondering if they may have just used the M6s.
[/quote]

The Dutch NWM made enlongated aluminum cased blanks which looked similar to the M6, it just had no paper disc inside and sowith no radial flute to support it.

In Germany GECO made plastic blanks in black and red plastic (brass head) and I think plastic training rounds, at least those exist and are made of blue plastic.

If I remember right there was also a blank with a wooden projectile but I do not recall who made it.


#19

Here is a quote from TM-9-1305-200 (June 1961) Small Arms Ammunition concerning .30 Carbine Blank cartridges:

CARTRIDGE, BLANK–No blank cartridges, as such, have been developed for carbines. However, CARTRIDGE, GRENADE, CALIBER .30, M6 is authorized for issue and use for blank firing purposes in the carbines.


#20

Here are some others that resemble the US M6 plus one with a wooden bullet as mentioned by EOD. I have them all listed as