30 Mauser Capped & All Range Bullets

I recently ran across some of these bullets. The bottom half of the bullet is CNCS and the top is copper. I understand they are a patented item by Westley Richards and are more common on rifle ammunition than on pistol ammunition. This information is of course from the IAA Forum.
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/name-of-two-tone-gm-cn-bullet/1258

Does anyone have images of the loaded cartridge in 30 Mauser and hopefully, of the box also?

What other pistol calibers were loaded with this bullet?

Images of technical information on this bullet (Patent, drawings, flyers, pages from catalogs, etc) would be appreciated.

What does the internal structure of the bullet look like?

Any other information appreciated.

Cheers,
Lew

Hello Lew, below is a page from a WR brochure from 1938-39 showing an artists conception of a section through a capped rifle bullet (upper right).

I believe I’ve seen .30 Mauser cartridges without the cap that look similar to the insides of the section shown above. Below is a link to some from Engel’s Collectibles auction earlier this year:

I’m glad you brought this up because I did not make the connection with the capped and uncapped version until just now (assuming they are the same otherwise).

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Larry,
That makes real sense and I wondered about it myself. It looked to me that the WR all range bullet may have feeding problems in an automatic pistol because of the bullet shape. As a minimum, there was probably some bullet deformation. The copper cap may have solved this problem.

I wrote an article for the ECRA on the WR All Range bullet early last year. It included a discussion of the DWM produced loads with the All Range bullet. I just checked the DWM bullet list and the all range bullet is not listed under #203, the bullets for the 7.63mm Mauser pistol. I dug a bit further and found all the Westley Richards bullets listed together under #269 which is about 1900-1902 since the 9mm Para bullet is #278 and probably was introduced in late 1902-1903. DWM Bullet #269 is the well-known All Range bullet. DWM #296A sure looks like the copper cap 30 Mauser bullet. It is shown as being for the Mauser pistol!

Many thanks for your hjelp!

Lew

Lew, I don’t see a connection to the .30 Mauser in your above post?
Below are some .300 Sherwoods by Kynoch with, admittedly very slight variations in the headstamp and bullet.
The “Capped Bullet” aka “L.T. bullet” was an invention of Leslie Taylor who was once managing director of Westley’s. I couldn’t find a date-range for him holding this position, but I think at or just after the turn of the century was the start.
These capped bullets can be found in various configurations in various case types with the inclusion of steel in the jacket material.
i should add there was also a lead capped L.T. bullet known & marked as the No. 2.
Also a sectioned. 318 W.Richards Capped Bullet.


sectioned%20LT%20capped%20%2C318

This is from my collection. Headstamps K * B * (Kynoch) and charger clip marked D.M.63%20mm%20Mauser%20-%20Westley%20Richards%20All%20Range%20Destructive%20Bullet

Pete,
What is the weight of the Sherwood bullets?

Lew

Fleming lists it as “7.0 Grns.”

Pete,

The bullets pictured above are 85gr, The Winchester 30 Mauser load before WWII was 86gr. Seems right for 30 Mauser.

Cheers,
Lew

OK, thanks apparently not the same.
Another one to look for!

I have seen a .300 Sherwood cartridge on an Eley cartridge board with what looks like a LT capped bullet. Picture of board herewith, but unfortunately a bit blurry. (to the right of the .297/230 Morris cartridge)

Lew,

While the right weight and proportion (I assume you checked the diameter and it was ok also) are right, the bullets you show don’t look much like that in the known .30 Mauser cartridge shown on the data page I sent you for the * K * B headstamped rounds with box label. That bullet has a very deep cannelure right above the case mouth, and the part of the bullet showing is either brass or worn cupronickel. From the photo’s lighting it is hard to tell. It definitely is not a gilding-metal jacket.

I just point this out. There may be more than one variation. To me, the salient feature, the cannelure, is more important a difference than is the bullet finish.

John Moss

I see what you mean, but it’s pretty blurry, so I can’t say. Of the headstamped & non-headstamped Eley’s I have all are lead. I do have CN & GM jacketed solids but both are Kynoch made.

Pete - I was referring to the bullets in Lew’s initial picture, as opposed to a picture of a cartridge, along with its box, from a work on 7.63 mm Mauser by Will Reuter of RSA. I am not sure if your answer was to my comments, but if so, I don’t understand about "…but its pretty blury… Are you referring to Will’s picture (not post on this thread)? Or, were you referring to the picture from FVN?

John

Hi John
replying to FVN about the photo of the Eley board.
You will notice on the right, top side of my post a curved arrow and FVN’s logo & if I did it right your logo should show in the same place with this post.
apparently I didn’t as it didn’t show

Pete - it actually is showing. Sorry! I don’t pay any attention to most of the symbols on the Forum, because being computer-stupid, I haven’t a clue what most of them mean.

I will look for that if I get confused about who’s answer who in the future.

John M.

Pete,
The bullets I showed have a CNCS jacket. Is jacket below the copper cap on the Sherwoods you show magnetic??? CNCS is typical of German bullets of this period, but I don’t know if it is also used on British bulletrs from trhe 1920s…

Thanks for the input.

Lew

Hi Lew
Three of these are CN [base] / GM [nose] & two are CNCS / GM.

I’ve been thinking about the weight Fleming notes for this bullet weight as 7.0 Grns & in looking again at his book he does list some loads at 8.5 Grns.

These L.T. bullets in other British case tyes are known in all sorts of configurations & materials GMCS & CNCS. To illustrate a few, from top to bottom these three .318 W.R. are.
GMCS / CN
GMCS / GM
CNCS / CN
The sectioned example in the previous post is CN/ GM
DSCN4965

Edited to add,
John I just looked at Will R.s 7.63 work & see he does show a box & a round which to me looks to me to be CN/CN, plus he would have checked it with a magnet & he notes no C.S.

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Pete - That was the “data page” I sent to Lew. The bullet well could be CN over CN. I agree entirely with you that if it was CNCS, Will, a fabulous researcher, would have so noted.

John M.

Pete, thanks for the info. It is interesting that all three rounds in your post have magnetic jackets with non-magnetic caps. I wonder if this is normal for all the capped rounds in other calibers.

I just read my own ECRA article on the All Range Bullet and found that DWM offered the capped bullet in their 1904 catalog. I have attached it below.

The box of All Range rounds pictured in the article have non-magnetic jackets. I wonder if that is standard for all of the All Range rounds, including those made by DWM???

ECRA WR-All Range Blt.pdf (830.4 KB)

Cheers,
Lew

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Lew, the * D.M. * K. headstamped version by DWM has a CNCS jacket. The Kynoch versions are simply CN. There is an unheadstamp version, obviously British and possibly by Eley, that is also a CN jacket.

By the way, in your article, the one with simply a “K B” headstamp, without the “stars” should be a loading specifically for the Borchardt. I do not have the source at hand, but that headstamp in ordinary ball loading has been identified as being specifically for the Borchardt, stars omitted for purposes of separate identity. I don’t have the all-range bullet version with that headstamp myself.

John Moss