30 Nato


#1

Just some info for a friend of mine !

Some people told me there is a shortage of 30 Nato rounds on the commercial US market right now and the need is about 10 Millions (10 000 000) rounds

A friend of mine told me he can supply a very big amount of ctges at the price of $400 per thousand rounds. This is ex works.

Is it too expansive for US shooters ?
I have no idea on the average price of 30 nato rounds during the last months.
Thanks, jp


#2

Supplies here are not as short as they were several months ago, but .308 is still commanding pretty high prices.
About forty to fifty cents per round seems to be the going rate for surplus. Commercial is a little higher than that.
If the ammo that your friend can get is current production, and reloadable, that is a very good price at the comsumer end. But, heck, …even Berdan primed surplus would still probably sell pretty well at $400/K.

-Allen


#3

thank you very much !

jp


#4

The problem is you folks are ignoring that the seller seems to want $400.00 per thousand himself. I assume since the posting is from J-P that the ammunition is not in the United States. He is talking about a large quantity. First, you have to find an importer. The ammo must be shipped from where ever it is. That is expensive. Then, the importer is the first profit tier. Secondly, it would probably go in large quantities (but smaller than the import amount), to distributors. Another profit tier. Then to the dealer, who will sell it at retail. Expect the 400.00 per thousand price to double by the time it gets to the consumer.

I am speaking from business experience on this - 36 years in the retail gun business, with some importations, although we tried to avoid them because they are too much work. It is the reality of doing business.

If the ammo is in the U.S. already, or the manufacturer is, then the price increase will be less. Regardless, Even if the ammo was sold to gun shops at 400.00 per thousand, add a profit margin of 25%, about normal for ammunition from wholesale to retail, it would be about 53.50 per hundred, and that does not take into account any profit level or shipping - that is J-Ps friend selling the ammo directly to the gun shop that sells you a hundred rounds, with no consideration of shipping costs.


#5

Every chance I get these past few months, I tell my wife “I told you so” about all the thousands of rds of various calibers of ammo that I’ve purchased over the past several years and which she used to chastise me over. I haven’t needed to purchase any ammo in months, so I beat the surge luckily. Also good to know that if (when) the dollar plummets, I will have good bartering fodder.


#6

[quote=“JohnMoss”]The problem is you folks are ignoring that the seller seems to want $400.00 per thousand himself. I assume since the posting is from J-P that the ammunition is not in the United States. He is talking about a large quantity. First, you have to find an importer. The ammo must be shipped from where ever it is. That is expensive. Then, the importer is the first profit tier. Secondly, it would probably go in large quantities (but smaller than the import amount), to distributors. Another profit tier. Then to the dealer, who will sell it at retail. Expect the 400.00 per thousand price to double by the time it gets to the consumer.

I am speaking from business experience on this - 36 years in the retail gun business, with some importations, although we tried to avoid them because they are too much work. It is the reality of doing business.

If the ammo is in the U.S. already, or the manufacturer is, then the price increase will be less. Regardless, Even if the ammo was sold to gun shops at 400.00 per thousand, add a profit margin of 25%, about normal for ammunition from wholesale to retail, it would be about 53.50 per hundred, and that does not take into account any profit level or shipping - that is J-Ps friend selling the ammo directly to the gun shop that sells you a hundred rounds, with no consideration of shipping costs.[/quote]

John,
It was not specified if that was the initial cost or the end price. It was actually implied in J-Ps post that it was the ultimate selling price when he asked if the price he mentioned was too expensive for US shooters.
Still, in my reply I was cautious about making assumptions and so proceeded to answer by saying that it was a good price ‘on the consumer end’.
You are probably right about the $400/K being his expected initial asking price, and I should have addressed that specifically in my response. I guess I was assuming that J-P understood that I was giving advice as a consumer in the market and not as a representive of the importers, distributors, or retailers in the ammunition business.
Certainly, if $400/K were the origin price, the numerous, ultimate mark-ups would make it a definite no-go in the current market. Thanks for pointing that out John. I should’ve thought to do so myself.

-Allen


#7

Hi!
The ctges are not in the united states of course.

Two questions :

  1. John , do you think the ratio is as much as 2 for 1 if we are talking of about 10 millions rounds in two or perhaps three deliveries ??
  2. Why is there a shortage of 30 Nato ctges in the US ?
    New importation laws ??

JP


#8

[quote=“jean-pierre”]Hi!

  1. Why is there a shortage of 30 Nato ctges in the US ?
    New importation laws ??

JP[/quote]


#9

JP,

I may be missing some other reasons, and there is the ongoing issue of mangled or unmangled brass from our dear government for major reloading outfits, but I think the main reason for ammunition shortages has been due to good old fashioned hoarding. Something about our new President…

Dave


#10

J-P: I could be wrong, but yes, I do think the ratio wouldl be 2-1. I am not sure, by the way, that sending small shipments wouldn’t increase the costs. That, I simply don’t know. I do know that large shipments of ammunition increase dramatically in cost from the original seller abroad, to the retail buyer in the United States. Shipping costs are very high to begin with. There is much time invested in get import licenses, and the lot. The money is tied up for some time - 10,000,000 rounds ia a lost of ammunition. If sold at real bargain prices, it would probably go fast in this country right now. However, at higher prices, it would take an importer some time to recoup his investment and make a decent profit. You don’t front the money for 10,000,000 rounds of ammunition and its shipping costs, and the labor of handling it, to make 5 or 10% on your investment. 25% is pretty much standard, and some make more than that. That quantity would be probably go from the importer to distributors. It is a lot of ammunition for an importer to try to sell directly to dealers in any reasonable amount of time. Again, as the distributor sells it, they would probably make a profit of from 18 to 25% and perhaps more. Then it is in the hands of the dealer. Some large dealers work on 25% on surplus ammunition. Others as high as 35% (which is very small profit compared to, say, furniture, jewelry, thinks like that where retailers often make 100 to 300% profit). Some, if they think they can get more, will simply charge whatever the market will bear in their area. Sometimes that is less than 25% and sometimes it is much more than that.

Yes, I think the price to the consumer would be at least double of the raw price the ammunition was sold for in Europe to an American Importer. Just my opinion but as I said before, based on a lot of years in the retail business, working for a very successful gun shop that was in business for 52 years. By the way, speaking of profit, many people not in retail trades think that stores make huge profit margins. One of my customers once asked if we made “four or five hundred percent on our total sales each year”! Well, when the City and County of San Francisco imposed a punitive, discriminatory added tax of 3% gross on our store, it turned us into a non-profit organization even though we were highly successful with a very high sales volume for a specialty gun shop. We lasted under that tax for about two years when the owners shut the business down because they were tired of working 70 hours a week for wages, with nothing left in corporate profit at the end of the year!! That figure was not a typo - an additional 3% tax sank us, along with the increase of paper work imposed upon by our “enlightened governments” at all levels.

Anyone feel like investing in a couple of million dollars worth of inventory for a 3% return after all costs are paid? Not me.


#11

I am currently involved in the Development of Importation and Shipment of Ammunition in “Container Quantities” to Australia, and the situation is the same.

Initial cost of 7,62 ammo varies from $400 to $600 US CIF (Cost, Insurance AND Freight) to our Home Port. That gets it to our country. Then we have to add 10% GST ( a general “sales” Tax,) and 5% Advalorem Customs Duty, so that brings it up to $500 to $700 roughly per K.
Convert this to Aussie Dollars (AUD.1==USD 0,70) Then add the Freight Agents administrative costs ( about AUD $100 per container) and Trucking to your Depot ( about $200 per container), so by then , with the Ammo in your (Importer’s Store), you are now at about about $800 to $1000 Aussie Dollars per 1,000… add your profit margin…say 25% ( as suggested)…that makes $1,000 to $1,250 AUD per K, and it is still in your warehouse, or at a Gov’t Explosives Magazine ( for such a large quantity–so extra overheads)

Australia is a Huge country, and Road Shipping DG (Hazmat) charges are about Twice Normal Inert Freight. So by the time it hits the Gundealer (Aussie Importers are also usually Distributors, there is not the extra levels that there are in the USA (Importer-Distributors-Jobbers-Gun dealers/Discount stores), the cost to the Customer will be about $1200 to $1500 Per Thousand for new-made or very recent Military 7,62 Nato, brass cased, probably Non-corrosive, either Berdan or Boxer.
That is based on Supply quotes from major manufacturers outside the US-Nato alliance.

IN order to get any local (Retail) price for Milsurp 7,62 Nato in Aust. for under $1,00 AUD per round, one has to acquire it at around US $0,20 or less per round, and in Container sized quantities (Most suppliers will NOT even consider Orders for Less than a couple of Containers (20 footers), or about 1,6 Million rounds ( FCL ( 16-18 tonnes Nett) is about 800,000 rounds.)

I know that Australia is not the USA , in terms of either market size or usage (we aren’t allowed Semi-Autos, for instance, and there is NO Class III Community; So the general shooting community here could absorb about 8Mill. 7,62Nato a Year ( 6Mill. for the Target Competition Shooters --Bolt action Target rifle) and the rest by General shooters (Service rifle, Plinkers, etc). That makes 10 or so containers…One shipment. And an initial investment of some $400 to 600,000 US before even starting…

JM has explained pretty well what the financial implications are for a US importer/etc…and for the Retail customer/shooter.

It’s not as easy at it is sometimes made out to be.

The days of landing 10 to 20 million rounds of Milsurp ammo in one hit, and having it sold or pre-sold, almost immediately, at low prices(“pennies per round” ) are long gone, for any type of ammo ( Milsurp or otherwise).

The Europeans,(those who can shoot Milsurps) think nothing of paying over EU$(Euro) 1.00 per round at retail…So, as Bill Gates said several years ago: “Rule One: Life ain’t easy—Get used to it!” ( Speech to a High School Graduation Class).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#12

Thank you very much for the explanations.

And Bill Gates is very cleaver. I like his sentence :
“Rule One: Life ain’t easy—Get used to it!”

JP


#13

A most interesting thread, and a seldom covered topic. What about military surplus rifles, pistols and the like? Are those good old times gone too?
Somewhere in this forum I read that 7’62 x 54R Mosin ammo was relatively unknown in the US until Franco sold the surplus Mosin rifles from the civil war. When did this happen? Was surplus ammo sold too?