.30 Remington FBI load


#1

I read some days ago a post on another forum about a .30 Rem. FBI load that duplicates the performance of the .351 WSL.
Also recomend not to use regular .30 Rem. load on M8 rifles from marked FBI.
Any info would help.
Thanks
Martin


#2

Martin, I’ve seen several .30 Remington cartridges with full metal cased bullets. Some were pointed too, allowed because of the spiral magazine on the Model 14 and 141 rilfes. Those full metal cased loads were considered for police duty as well as for shooters who did not want an expanding bullet for their shots. Also, I’m not completely familiar with the police verson of the Model 8 or Model 81 but I have seen references and photos. It was my thought that those versions were mainly made in .35 Remington. Frank Hamer is said to have used one during his famous ambush of Bonnie & Clyde. Now, I don’t see how any load would make the .30 Remington work more like a .351 WSL. To do so, the .30 would have to be down-loaded because it is already superior to the .351 in almost every way. Also, because the Model 8 and Model 81 rifles were recoil actuated, any change in the loading of the cartridge could effect the functioning of the rifle’s action. My own rifle in .30 Remington is a Model 14 carbine and I’ve had it since being a teenager. Along with having the rifle, I have or have had a wide variety of ammunition for it, from very old to the latest stuff, and I’ve never encountered or hear a reference to a FBI loading. If you hear more about such a loading, please share it with us.


#3

303mike,
Some time ago I finded the thread about FBI load and unfotunatelly I can not find the thread I have google it, search on historial of my computer, without success.
Also remember a picture of a bow of .30 Remington ammo from the FBI but also can not find the source.
Ask the same question on another ofrum and a fellow member told me there is a reference on John Henwood’s book, “The Great Remington 8 and 81”.
The funy thing that the .40 S&W born as a low power 10mm asked by the FBI. Do the FBI always want a lighter load (not pun intended)
May I contact you by PM?
Thanks
Martin


#4

While not the subject of my reply to this thread, let me state right off that I have never heard of an “FBI load” in .30 Remington caliber. I can find no mention of it in Henwoods 2nd Edition, although that is not the newest one from Collector Grade Publications, but rather one I got from the Author himself before the newest book was published.

It might be covered in the hard-back, extended coverage book - I simply don’t know, but it is a new one on me.

Martin - regarding your question, does the FBI always want a lighter load? The quick answer is no. They were pretty much responsible for the very good .38 Special +P with 158 gran Lead SWC bullet, that certainly is not a light load in that caliber. In fact, it is the best self-defense load in .38 Special, in my opinion and that of many far more expert than I.

Remember, what is light in one caliber is not necessarily a light load in the overall scheme of ammunition. The FBI want a 10mm firearm with a load the pushed a 180 grain bullet between 975fps and 1000fps. That is a light load compared to a .44 Magnum, or even compared to 10mm hunting loads, but it is certainly not a “pop-gun” loading for self defense. They have to think about pistol size, and the ability of the average agent to learn to achieve a certain level of proficiency with the pistol. Many civilians buy guns of monster calibers and I see them all the time on the range, such poor marksmen with them due to the excessive muzzle-blast and recoil that they cannot hit a man-sized target consistently at 25 meters taking all the time in the world to aim. There IS such a thing as too much gun when it comes to the reality of deadly force street fights.

The FBI obtained the load they wanted in the so-called “Ten-Lite” based on the long 10mm Remington Auto case. The problem with that combination is that the issue pistol was very big, and for smaller female agents, large in the hand and hard to conceal. Never-the-less, they kept it for a number of years. I am not sure that they bear any direct responsibility for the development of the .40 S&W cartridge.

Upon seeing the ballistics required by the FBI, Smith & Wesson and Olin (Winchester) took it on themselves to develop a cartridge with the same ballistics and bore diameter, but in a smaller envelope that could be used in a pistol more akin to a 9mm than to a .45 in size and weight (although the first S&W .40, the Model 4006, turned out to be a very heavy pistol, the heaviest made by SW, as I recall). It was certainly based on ballistic performance required by the Bureau, but it was not directly requested by them, to my knowledge or that of any source that I can recall.

I still prefer the .45 cartridge, but the appellation given to the .40 S&W by someone who actually is a little bit of a hero to me, Jeff Cooper, MHRIP, was really unfair - .40 Short and Weak. History has told the story - it is a decent fight-stopping cartridge that is probably more popular with LE today than either the 9mm or the .45. In our area, it definitely is. Although attempts to turn it into another 9mm by making the bullet ridiculously light for the caliber to get higher velocity hasn’t helped the round at all, one can still obtain loads in the original range that are quite decent for self-defense and fully capable of achieving the penetration and resultant tissue crush and internal bleeding that is required in a good self-defense round.


#5

Martin, Yes, you can PM me. Or, I’ll just give you my email address if you’d like it. Mike


#6

John,
Thanks for your answer.
I remember part of this story, very informative I will keep it in my files.
No offence inteded with my joke. Just find it funy that if this FBI load exist there was a coincidence.

303mike,
pm sent.

Thanks
Martin