30long Rimfire Raised "FW" headstamp


#1

I picked this up “FW” head stamped cartridge several years ago. It was presented as a 30 Long rimfire from France

Dimension:
Rim: 0.325” (8.26mm)
Head: 0.304” (7.74mm)
Case mouth: 0.304” (7.74mm)
Case Length: 0.651” (16.54mm)
Total Length: 0.951” (24.14mm)

The French connection was based on the fact several of these were found in France. Who was “FW”. Awhile back Arron showed a pinfire with a raised FW headstamp. He attributed to Felix Warnier. Any information on Felix Warnier? Did he manufacture rimfires?

Is this a 30 long? The case diameter is slightly larger than typical seen in 30 longs or British .297’s.

The rim is narrower and not was well define as typically seen on 30L’s. Is it actually a rimfire or some type of inside primed?

Thanks

Paul


Unknown Rimfire
#2

Paul,

I have a Felix Warnier catalog from some time. It says he had been around since 1879, and at the timed traded on 11, Boulevard Bonne-Nouvelle, Paris. I think the catalog is from late 1890s or very early 1900s.

He pictures rimfire revolvers he has for sale along with cartridges beside them.

However he also pictures a cane gun he made and I think your cartridge may be an internally primed 7mm for his cane gun?

On the inside back cover I translated what he wrote:

[quote]House F. Warnier, having brought in its manufacture all the improvements recently discovered, is more than ever able to defy all competition, not only by the elegance, precision, strength of his arms, but especially from the point of view of its modest price.

Emerging weapons F. Warnier House will always exchanged to the complete satisfaction of customers, even if they have served and would have been purchased long ago.

It is the same for business by correspondence.

Order a gun, indicate the number of tariff, price, size, system, closing and if desired choke-bored.[/quote]

A couple different places in the catalog he mentions that this catalog features premium quality shotshells by SFM. The last two pages are listing pinfire and centerfire shotshells by SFM in various qualities and quantities. (It is interesting that he describes the headstamp for each too.)

Another interesting thing is this catalog has a whole section of fencing equipment. However nowhere in the catalog does he mention any prices for metallic cartridges for sale even though he lists many pistols and rifles for sale. He does on the back cover though mention that he has a wide range of cartridges in smokeless or black powder.


#3

The rim of that “FW” case does not look like a rim fire case but more like an inside primed case. Much too thick to my eye.

There is a 7mm thick rim, but my 4 examples all have an external primer.

However it could be like the early Floberts with an inner piece to hold the fulminate in place. But those do seem to have a narrow rim where as this seems quite thick.

Time for a X-ray.


#4

Someone also has to find a solid confirmation that this headstamp was made by/for Félix Warnier. I’m aware of guns by him marked FW enclosed in circle, but this can be just coincidence.


#5

This is a Rim Fire ctge made by Felix Warnier.
100% sure.

jp


#6

JP thanks for all the information and Aaron thanks for the pages from the catalog.

So Felix Warnier actually manufacture rimfires. How long was he in operation? Any other head stamped rimfires known?

Thanks

Paul


#7

Hello Paul,
I never said FW manufactured the ctges, but I said FW is the trade mark for his ctges.
Who did manufacture them, I don’t know.

Without going very deep in my library I can tell you Warnier existed en 1887.
It went out of business in 1914.

Take a look into the IAA bulletins, my friend Leveau wrote something about these ctges. I don’t remember the number.

JP


#8

Hello Paul,
Could you please double check the dimensions of your cartridge ?
JP

Here are some explanations about this cartridge.
Some people say it is rimfire and some say it is centerfire.

A) First at all this cartridge is from Felix Warnier.
Here is for example one of his trade mark.

Therefore it is made for Felix Warnier, even perhaps loaded by him.
But the case is not manufactured by him, but surely by SFM (or Cartoucherie Francaise if it is from after 1905).

B) The confusion comes from a SFM drawing (N°12911 dated from 1904)

Usually the 7 mm RF Flobert rifles (which are a lot less common than the 6 mm or 9 mm flobert rifles) have a short chamber (10.5 to 11) when they have a rifled bore and are designated to shoot the ball ctge.
Here are two examples of such chambers:

The drawing 12911 shows the two chambers of a rifle made by Warnier.

One is for the 9 mm Flobert shot ctge, the other one is given for the 7 mm Flobert ball ctge.

Most of the people think at first it is not for a 7 mm Flobert ball ctge because the chamber is too long.

They think there is a mistake on the drawing, the draughtsman writting “for the 7 mm Flobert ball ctge” instead of writting “for the XXX ball ctge”

And they think this chamber is for the ctge shown by Paul.

It is not good for two reasons :

  1. there is no mistake in this drawing, it is really a chamber for the 7 mm Flobert ball ctge.

Not only the dimensions are ok for this ctge (as you will see by the calculations here under)

But also we must take into account there is another kind of chamber for the 7 mm Flobert ball or shot ctge as we can see on the following drawing:

  1. This chamber is not good for the ctge shown by Paul, the dimensions been too small (calculations here under)

As we see the 7 flobert ctge fits perfectly in the FW chamber of the drawing (we have given also the 7 Flobert chamber shown above)

But the ctge of Paul has a base diameter too big and the chamber diameter is too small at the maximum length of the ctge.
Furthermore the bore is too small at the maximum length of the ctge.

C) I do not have this cartridge in my collection and Paul didn’t give the bullet diameter (7 or 7.5 ??) and the rim thickness.
Furthermore I don’t have anymore the SFM drawings about CF and RF ctges.
Therefore I cannot tell you what it is and if it is RF or CF.

D) My friend Leveau told me all these ctges are coming from him. He made an X-Ray when he got them.
He says they are Rim Fire.

JP


#9

Hello JP,

I recheck the dimension and they are what I had posted above. The bullet diameter is 7.52mm (0.296 inches).
What other information do you have on the two cartridges (dimensions etc)?

Thanks for your help,

Paul


#10

[quote=“Rimfire”]Hello JP,

I recheck the dimension and they are what I had posted above. The bullet diameter is 7.52mm (0.296 inches).
What other information do you have on the two cartridges (dimensions etc)?

Thanks for your help,

Paul[/quote]

Thanks Paul

see my answer and explanations here above

jp


#11

JP,

Great information!
Just for the record the rim thickness is about 1.6mm (rather had to measure).

Thanks again,

Paol


#12

Hi Paul and JPEG.
That is really interesting info about the 7mm Flobert ball variation JP. I had the same round that you have Paul, but sold it long ago. Now I am kicking myself for doing that. Now I have another Flobert to look for. I wonder if the 7mm flobert rifle round was head stamped? I also wonder what other rimfires were made for the flobert rifle by other makers that we have overlooked!
There is always something new turning up with the floberts.

I look forward to seeing you in St. Loius JP.

Cheers,
Will.