. 310 Rook with .750 case


#1

Greetings all, I have 2 rounds in my .310 collection which I would appreciate a little more info on one with a .ELEY. .310 headstamp has the .750 case and a single groove lead bullet ,on page 136 in Hoyem he shows a shorter cased round with a 2 groove bullet and no other info , Flemming on page 168 mentions a .750 case in his " Headstamp Variations " but also with no other info. Hoyem also mentions very briefly of a Short Range round at the end of his .310 Cadet comments, which is not in Flemming and I believe I have this round, with the same headstamp .ELEY. .310 this has a round ball at the case mouth with a 6 point open crimp for an OL of .873 , can anyone help with more details, a picture of a box would be very nice, thanks Randy


#2



1 =ball flush with case mouth O A L .900 inch, 5 segment open crimp
headstamp ELEY 310
2 = blank? 6 segment closed crimp, O A L 1.045 inches
headstamp C A C 310
3 Cattle Killer, case length .855 inches, O A L 1.325 inches
headstamp WWG 310 CK [W W GREENER CATTLE KILLER] Imperial Chemical Industries [KYNOCH] monogrammed primer.
4 = ball round, lead hollow point, case length 1.150 inches O A L1.575 inches
5 = F M J headstamp M G case length 1.1 inches, OAL 1.675 INCHES
The ball rounds come with MF and MG headstamps with various sizes and thickness to the script. Small Arms Ammunition Factory Footscray, Victoria Australia MF =FACTORY No. 1 MG -FACTORY No. 2
The cadet rifles were sold off in the 1960’s here in Australia for about 1 pound
or about $2.00 US. and there was no gun control or licencing so a lot of people had them and many still do. Most of the ammo came in plain cardboard packets of 20 rounds.
I have a fair number of rounds but no packets to refer too.
Terry.


#3

Terry - The Cadet rifles were sold off by the thousands in the United States, also, but here we had just about zero ammunition for them so many of them were converted to other calibers. I have one converted by Ward Koozer, a great American gunsmith and barrel-reboring expert. It is converted to .357 Magnum. Of course, they bushed the firing pin with the conversion for increased strength. I shoot it with .38 wadcuters and it is very accurate. Other than the caliber conversion and a required new front sight (to get the right height) and squaring of the notch of the rear sight, it is straight military still. I have seen some made into beautiful custom guns. the most common, and cheapest conversion of these, was to .32-20 WCF caliber. These days, I probably would not have one of these converted but then, they were nothing more than a cheap, nice quality and handly little rifle.

The greatest days of american Gunshops were before the Gun Control Act of 1968. Surpolus arms were coming from everywhere, thanks to Sam Cummings of Itnerarmco (later “Interarms”) and outfits like Golden State Arms, in Pasadena, California.

Antique gun prices had not yet gone crazy, and they were plentiful, even in a place like San Francisco, then a relatively conservative city. You could buy a nice Colt 1849 Pocket Revolver for about $75.00 - of course at the time, that was half a months pay for me.

At any rate, the little Martinis were plentiful and popular when converted so they could be shot. I still have mine, and will never sell it. I actually wish it had been converted to .32-20, as I have other guns in that caliber and like it better in a rifle than the .357 Magnum.


#4

Hi Terry, thanks for the reply and the pictures, I have all those rounds and plenty more, your first round is the same as one of mine in question, which I think is the Short Range mentioned in Hoyem , Looking at the 2 pictures on page 136 in Hoyem I think that second round is the Cattle Killer round with the .86 case and therefor Hoyem makes no mention of the .310 Rook, my main question was on the .750 case length ROOK mentioned in Fleming, with .ELEY. .310 headstamp, which I believe is a seperate caliber to the Cadets and the Cattle Killers, which both have longer cases, info is hard to find on this .750 case little devil , I also have a Cattle Killer round with a Steel Tipped lead bullet ,that one must be for Elephants, thanks Randy


#5

All of page 136 of Hoyem III is confusing and in some error. Sticking to the '.310 Cadet (.310 Greener), 1.08" ’ section, illustrated are two seperate case types the longer with 1.110"L - 1.120"H caselength is the ‘.310 Cadet’ or ‘.310 Greener’ - a cartridge developed for ‘Miniature Rifle’ competition at Bisley etc. The most important competition for this cartridge was ‘The Greener’, restricted to rifles of that make. The ‘.310 Greener’ was also used for sport with the lighter weight bullets - they are not short-range.
The cartridge which Hoyem illustrates beneath the ‘.310 Cadet’ is the ‘.310 Cattle Killer’ - also developed & sold by W.W.Greener & sometimes headstamped ‘W.W.G. C.K.’ accordingly. The ‘.310 Catttle Killer’ (based on the ‘7.5mm Nagant’ case) is .855"L - .865"H caselength. The crimped case with round ball is for killing sheep - sometimes it has a blackened case to denote a different loading.
The .750" caselength ctg you mention is a mystery to me - don’t have Flemming. Any chance of dimensions on your example - & especially pics??


#6

Hello John, Here are the dimensions of my round

Rim .400
Head .352
neck .328
CL .744
OL 1.26

The headstamp is .ELEY. .310 round nose lead bullet with 1 groove , crimping is by neck coning into bullet , definitely a factory loaded round , Randy


#7

Thanks for those dimensions Randy. Was about to get back to you having overlooked my notes from Eley’s Loading Book - which has details on ctg in question under title of ‘.310 CK (for Pigs) Smokeless’.
Caselength is given as .75", propellant as 2 grains Revolver Cordite, bullet as 125 grain heeled solid lead with cannelure (.310 Cadet), no wad, bullet press fitted into case, overall length is 1.27" as of 1911. Notes then add ‘Orders for Greener, Birmingham to be labelled with Mr Greener’s label in future (1915)’.
Nice ctg Randy - I certainly need one for my collection… regards JohnP-C


#8

Randy - forgot to attach drawing of.310 CK - comparing your dimensions - would seem this is the parent of your ctg. Sorry about poor quality.


#9

Hi John, thanks for all that good info, I wonder if this is the cartridge mentioned in Flemings book ? Randy


#10

Hi John,

        When was the .310 Cattle Killer (21,75-21,97 mm case lenght) and the .310 Cattle Killer, sheep load with spherical lead bullet (21,97-22,2 mm case lenght) introduced?

        Thanks.

#11

Hi Fede -

sorry - I do not understand the question - please ask another way. Regards JP-C.