.32 SLR made from 5.56x45 brass


I got a bucket of mixed M1 Carbine ammo. There are a couple dozen rounds with this headstamp of IVI 69. This cartridge was definitely made out of something else, the question is from what?


Hello sksvlad
IVI 69 may be 7,62x51(.308)


Why would anyone take a large round like .308 and spend a lot of time (money?) altering it into a common and relatively cheap ammo like M1 Carbine? US was awash in both M1 guns and ammo after military switched to M16. Nam vets told me stories of being able to puchase up to 20 M1 Carbines for $1 each. And it came with ammo. Lots and lots of ammo. So, again, why?


You can’t mod .30 carbine ammo from .308 case!


Measure again. Might be .351 WSL.


IVI is Industries Valcartier Incorpor


Just to add to the controversy, here are 3 photos. The one on the left is a real thing, the one on the right is IVI 69. Look at the extractor groove in the last shot. Do you need measurements?


Is this rim on this round wider or the same diameter as the case? Because if it is the same, it looks like a cut down .223 Remington case to me, I have an example of both cases here, and the extractor groove and difference in diameter look similar. What is the round then? As it obviously would not chamber in a weapon chambered for the .30 Carbine round, as the .223 Rem case is 0.375" in diameter directly above the groove, compared to the .30 Carbine’s 0.354". Is this round a known wildcat cartridge, someone’s one-off experiment, or just something made by someone with nothing better to do?


I think Falcon is correct. This appears to be a .223 case cut off and with the head swaged down somewhat. It is probably an attempt, judging from the bullet’s seating depth (cartridge overall length), to make the Winchester .32 Self-Loading cartridge, ammunition for which has been very hard to get over the years. That cartridge is semi-rimed. The .30 Carbine is almost a rimless version of the .32 Winchester Self-Loading round, natural, since Winchester basically developed the .30 Carbine cartridge. The “IVI 69” headstamp is probably quite common on .223 - I don’t collect that cartridge so am not sure of that, but just an educated guess on my part. Nominal bullet diameter of the .32 WSL cartridge is around .320" so measuring the bullet diameter at the case mouth may tell the story. The cartridge OAL appears to be too long to be used in M1 Carbines, and the rim appears too big in the “shadow” picture of the two cartridges held in someone’s hand.


The rim on IVI 69 is 9.52mm, cartridge base (next to rim) is 8.97mm, and at the mouth-8.75mm.


IVI 69 bullet is 7.93mm at base and 7.18mm at the top of copper sleeve.


It seems a dangerous mistake of someone’s to mix those in with .30 Carbine ammo, as that round may fit in an M1 magazine. What would be the chance of it detonating after the bolt closed on it after firing of a normal carbine round. I take it this would probably seriously damage the weapon (and probably shooter). If it didn’t detonate, I take it it would be jammed in the chamber, possibly causing damage. The previous owner obviously didn’t look closely enough, and believed these were .30 Carbine rounds.


I vote with John on this one. The bullet profile is distinctive (thanks for the second set of photos). It would take some serious work to reduce the body size (by about 0.030") to that of the .32 SLR, but it makes far more sense to invest the effort to form some of that brass than the easily obtainable .30 Carbine. Bertram and / or Buffalo Arms may sell (or have sold in recent years) the correct brass, but none has been available from the mainstream manufacturers for decades. Nor is there any good alternative available to serve as a parent case for the purpose.

Using a 5.56x45 case, the rim would still be roughly 0.010" less in diameter than a factory .32 SLR, but likely it would function well enough for extraction, especially with the extractor groove (also part of the .32 SLR design). I’ve always considered the .32 SLR more of a rimmed cartridge than SR because the rim is so dramatically larger than the case body compared to other SR types such as the .220 Swift or SR version of the 7.7x58. Most of the manuals suggest using .32 WCF brass to form this casing, probably because of the rimmed design of the parent. It works, but again, it requires considerable time and effort.

Winchester did, in fact, do all the work on the .30 Carbine round; the original nomenclature was “.30 Self Loading” and the earliest cases (first three lots IIRC) were headstamped “W.R.A.Co. .30 S.L.” prior to acceptance by the military.

None of the Winchester SLR cartridges lend themselves to easy fabrication from other types, largely because the case designs themselves are so different than the usual basic head groupings.

I’d surmise the bucket of loose ammo was thrown together by someone not familiar with either the .30 Carbine loadings or the .32 SLR. Good thing no one attempted to fire the hand load in an M1 Carbine!



Iconoclast - that bullet, with its flat nose for use in tubular magazines, looks much like one I used to use in my .32-20 Model 1892 Winchester rifle. I now use an 80 grain HP that Winchester discontinued twenty-five or more years ago - I bought all the jobber had, as it is tack-driving accurate in my rifle. I also use a 116 grain GC bullet with lighter loads for plinking. It was the bullet and overall length of the cartridge that made me look at the .32 WSL for this matter.


Uh…did I say .351? Of course you all know I meant to say .32…right?


Here are some pictures of some original .32 Winchester SL cartridges and a box. http://www.ammo-one.com/032WIN.html (I had to post a link, pictures wouldn’t show in thread).