.320 Revolver Rnd with impressed horseshoe on primer


#1

I am going thru a handful of 320 Rev. rounds and have 2 that have only a 320 headstamp at 6 oclock and a impressed horseshoe on a gm primer.
Who manufactured the GM primer with impressed horseshoe.
Bob R.


#2

Bob–I’m not postive but I think the primer was made by U.S.C. Co. and the cartridge was loaded for Sears Roebuck.


#3

The “Horseshoe” or “U” shaped primer is most commonly found on ammunition produced by Sellier & Bellot of Czechoslovakia prior to 1936. In 1936 SBP introduced their own anti-corrosive primers called “Neroxin” with the special neroxin symbol.

The 320 Revolver cartridge was very popular in Europe during this time period (as was the 380 and 450). Your cartridge does sound like it could be by S&B.

Sellier & Bellot also used a “V” primer from 1935-cWW2. The “V” is believed to stand for the Vlasim factory.


#4

Bob & WBD–Forget my previous suggestion about U.S.C.Co. & Sears Robuck. I like WBD’s suggestion better.


#5

The “horseshoe” is S&B, BUT NOT the czech plant.
Munitionswerke Schoenebeck Germany used it further, as they where the successor of the S&B Schoenebeck plant. The Horseshoe was used to distinguish between the -at that time- Prag plant, and the S+B Schoenebeck plant.
The S&B Riga plant had their own cyrillic headstamp.
All their boxes still said: Munitonswerke Schoenebeck, formerly Sellier&Bellot.
See also picture# 2143 (Symbol headstamps marking) in Ian V.Hogg “The cartridge Guide, The small arms Ammunition Identification Manual” by Blackpole Books

Forensic


#6

I find this topic particularly interesting. I have never seen a MUNITIONS-WERKE SCH


#7

All,

This may diverge slightly from topic, but seems appropriate here. As I scan though the posts, many questions seem to grow from a common thread. That is the name, location, years of operation and type of ammunition that different manufacture produced. It would seem to me, with the great resources available on the IAA forum that someone (or some group) could act as a repository or clearing house for available manufacturers


#8

[quote=“Bob Ruebel”]I am going thru a handful of 320 Rev. rounds and have 2 that have only a 320 headstamp at 6 oclock and a impressed horseshoe on a gm primer.
Who manufactured the GM primer with impressed horseshoe.
Bob R.[/quote] Photos help .


#9

The “horseshoe” is S&B, BUT NOT the czech plant.
Munitionswerke Schoenebeck Germany used it further, as they where the successor of the S&B Schoenebeck plant. The Horseshoe was used to distinguish between the -at that time- Prag plant, and the S+B Schoenebeck plant.
The S&B Riga plant had their own cyrillic headstamp.
All their boxes still said: Munitonswerke Schoenebeck, formerly Sellier&Bellot.
See also picture# 2143 (Symbol headstamps marking) in Ian V.Hogg “The cartridge Guide, The small arms Ammunition Identification Manual” by Blackpole Books

Forensic[/quote]

My posting above is “crap”.…thats the result, if you write late in the night (for me at least)…
Also Mr.Dixons comments are mostly going back of errors in literature and are also not completely correct.

I found after Mr.Dixons answer my “book” on german factories and of the “Munitionsverband”…which was in fact an early KARTELL, in which all german, austrian and french factories and partly also the belgian factories agreed in several agreements over prices and rebates and it shows all relationships between the different factories.
First of all:
[b]Sch


#10

Thank you Mr Petrusic for all the wonderful information. I will digest it with glee.

I never expect that all the info written about such factories is always true but the more information that is released (without copyright), the closer we get to the truth.

Joe - Your idea has merit. I, for my part, hope to have available a website version of my “European Sporting Cartridges” by the end of 2007. The information in my database will be transferred to a website and it contains much more info than my books; with hundreds of images, European cartridge factory profiles, Headstamps, 100’s of small articles etc. I have a lot more information on S&B.

Anyway, “Forensic”, here is some info re questions in your email:

Here is what I have on the 1909 Erfurt Conference:

[i]"In the 1909 Erfurt Conference, the following was agreed:

Nomenclature Convention

Heinz Held states: "Following the rules of the


#11

[quote=“WBD”]Thank you Mr Petrusic for all the wonderful information. I will digest it with glee.

I never expect that all the info written about such factories is always true but the more information that is released (without copyright), the closer we get to the truth.

Headstamp Convention regarding manufacturers markings:

According to Jorian & Reigenstreif (translated) :

“At the Erfurt conference of 21.09.1909, German manufacturers voluntarily agreed to define dimensions for each calibre. For the headstamp, only the calibre designation and the code giving the place of manufacture was acceptable. Here, SCH is for Schonebeck. but one can also encounter K = Karlsruhe, L= Linden, N = Nurnberg, SU = Suhl, So = Sommerda and D = Durlach. If several manufacturers are in the same locality, only the packing markings will show the difference”[/i]

Here is what I have re the known hs with “SCH” hs:

[i]The unusual proprietary 'SCH." or “SCH” hs is found with and without a calibre.

With “dot” and without calibre, it is found on the 11.2x72 Schuler (W18). Consequently it has been considered to mean "Sch


#12

I heard several of you support the idea of some sort of seperate Forum on this site to provide an area where information on cartridge manufacturers could be accumulated by participants in the Fourm, perhaps on the style of Wikipedia or some other approach. The key to doing this is:

— The starting point is an overall concept or plan of how such a Forum on Manufacturers could be organized and managed

— The second step is to have a moderator or a set of moderators who will oversee the effort and make it work

— Third, a set of groundrules to operate the Forum under-like there must be a reference of some sort for all material submitted.

Is someone, or a group of you want to take on this project and put some ideas together on how it would operate, let me know and I will explore with the IAA the idea of establishing such a Forum!

An alternative is to simply keep the material on this forum and anyone interested can use the search capability to pull up all the information available on a company. Not as simple for the one seeking the information, but it will take a lot less effort because the one seeking the information would make the judgements on what is relevant and accurate and what not, instead of a moderator having to make some of these judgements.

Excellent material, thanks to all the contributors!!! Happy New Year…