.321 Greener


#1

Came across this cartridge .
Any information is welcome. Is described as .321 Greener.
Is it a common round?


Thanks in advance.
451kr.


#2

321 (or 331) Greener is a nice round.
you can find it with a single bullet or Duplex or Triplex bullets.

You have also the short ctge called 321 (or 331) Minor with the same different loadings.

Plus for these two ctges (and also other Geener calibers : 303, 30-06, aso) a lot of experimental loadings.

I wanted to introduce them in the post about the 303 Greener but apparently they are too well known or they interest nobody.

You will perhaps be luckier than me.

JP


#3

Its a Martini rifle cartridge although its history is obscure. WW Greener by the time this cartridge appeared was more or less BSA. Without my reference books lets just say they were kin.

Greener made huge numbers of Martini cadet rifles in .310 and civilian versions or permutations known as rook rifles although rabbit rifles would be a better name.

BSA made the same rifles in .22 right up into the 1970s

.321 was the true bore size of the .310 and its civilian varients. So no prize for guessing where the barrels came from although if my timeline is correct it was well after the era of the cadet rifles

It appears to be a necked down .577/.450 case although it could have been a necked down Wesley Richards .450 case as Wesley Richards were second cousins.

Its an oddity, I have never seen a rifle nor have I ever seen one listed in an auction.

Many of the rounds are 3X multiball loads. I’m doing this without recourse to my reference books but I believe it was a cordite load by Kynoch and the year 1920 or 21 comes into my mind.

All I can suggest is for issue to native troops but where and when?

Its a very interesting cartridge


#4

Leon, this variation of the .321 Greener looks like a single low velocity load using the long 280gr bullet, which can be found seated at different depths. Different single loads were experimented after the multiple load concept was discarded and were made using fluted and non-fluted cases. Regards, Fede.


#5

In other than Bill Fleming, Jim Richards or George Hoyem’s volumes of British cartridges there are two good articles from the New Zealand journal about this cartridge.

One by highly recommended by me is by Terry Castle, and is in issue #403, June/July 2013 on pages 6 through 9 He shows packets, factory drawings, a number of the load variations, a sectioned example and the uncommon headstamped example, plus informative text.

The other by Murray Sulzberger in #410 Aug./Sept 2014 pg 9 & 10 shows a number of the single bullets and their weight / make-up.

The NZ and the Australian journals have well researched articles, mostly about home-country product but sometimes a broader subject & so worth the subscription.

JP Not sure where you get the .331 designation. Kynoch Works tracing B.J.17. – 104 of 3rd January 1922 – W. W. Greener Bullets. (.330”) (also called .320”) Also on other drawings is .330" used.


#6

hello 451kr,
here is a picture of some different loadings for 321 Greener

Hello Pete
like you said the BJ 17-104 Kynoch drawing is titled :
330 Greener bullets (also called 320)
All the bullets for 321 long or 321 short (Minor) ctges are in fact 330 diameter.

Once they have written that on one drawing they are not going to repeat on each drawing 321 (or 331)

therefore it would be more exact to call a 321 Greener a 331 Greener.

jp


#7

JP, the correct name of this cartridge is .321 Greener, I don’t understand why do you think it would be more exact to call it a “.331 Greener”. Besides the designations used in drawings already mentioned, boxes are marked .321 Greener or .450/.330; some cartridges are headstamped GREENER .321; in a letter written by Greener he calls it a .321 Greener; the barrel of a rifle is marked 321-3 1/4". Do you know of a reference using the “.331” designation?


#8

Fede,
I remember (it is very very old, beginning of the 90’s) Peter Labett sent me some documents from Greener where there were references to 331 and not to 321.
I don’t have anymore these documents because I got rid of them (I don’t collect this kind of ctges nowadays, I kept only documentation about the ctges of my collection I still have not sold).

The BJ17-104 drawing dated from 1922 say “330 bullets” and "also called 320"
The BK82-105 (about the 321 Minor) says 321 and is dated from 1928.

Yourself said some boxes are marked 450/330 (and not 450/320)

Perhaps the designation at the beginning was 331 and then changed to 321 for commercial reasons.

Some ctges are headstamped 321 Greener, but a lot of them are unheadstamped, specially the ones with experimental bullets

There is surely some british collector having drawings about the Greener ctges and bullets and able to give designation depending of the dates.

Anyway, despite the designation itself, I hope 451kr found answers to his question.

JP


#9

Thanks all for your input.

451kr.


#10

I think some of this has got bogged down in the dimensions issues of heeled bullets. My interest would be why this round was designed in the first place? there must have been perceived need and a market.

The Birmingham gun trade at this time was pretty astute, and pretty mercenary. they didn’t get involved unless there was money to be made