375 Rimless Nitro or 9.5x57MS


#1

Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen
Had a discussion with a fellow collector this afternoon regarding the origin of the 9.5x57 MS. Both Dixon and Hoyem state that it was an Austrian design, but the Wikipedia article (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9.5x57mm_M … Schoenauer) states that is was actually British by Westley Richards and Eley in 1908. I’m inclined to agree that it was Austrian, but if there are members out there that can clarify, I would appreciate that.

Thanks
Daan


#2

Daan, the Eley drawing is titled “Westley Richards .375 Cartridge” and dated May 28, 1908; and DWM’s case number 531 is designated “Pürschbüchse Kal. 9,5 mm Mannlicher-Schönauer” and is also from 1908, but I don’t have information about the exact date (the answer would be found in DWM drawing number F348 but don’t have a copy either, if any actually survives). The earliest known Austrian production is G. Roth and its case number 811 was assigned c. 1910, and if this was designed by Steyr on an earlier date, I don’t know.

As you can see, there is no definitive answer on my part.


#3

Thanks Fede
I thought that it might have been relatively easy with a cartridge that is not exactly rare, but it goes to show that our hobby has some fascinating stories and history. We will keep searching.
Daan


#4

This is interesting, I hadn’t heard of that 1908 Eley drawing before. I don’t have F348 either but I do have the Mauser drawing 11242D of DWM case #531 which is dated 1921 and refers to F348. Austrian references list this as M1910.

Fede, where did you get that 1908 date from DWM case #531 ? I don’t believe it was shown in the DWM 1911 catalog.


#5

Brad, sorry for the late answer, the 1908 date for the DWM case number 531 seems to be a product of my imagination; I found this date in my “revised notes” for this caliber but it must be wrong as I can’t find any source indicating this.

Regarding the “.375 Westley Richards”, here is an excerpt from a WR c. 1909 catalog (dated Jul 12 1909 on the cover):

Another from the WR 1912 catalog:


#6

The illustration of the WR clip of patented capped bullets in Fede’s post is interesting as it shows these as Leslie Taylors soft nosed capped bullets. As such they would have a hollow lead tip, not hollow pointed, but a hollow lead cap at the nose. I’ve seen this in the .476 NE where the lead bullet tip is actually stamped " L.T. NO. 2" and has an equally large lead tip. (see below) I don’t have an example with such a large lead tip in my rimless .375’s / 9.5 MS collection.

I also note the advert lists the copper capped, and the soft-nosed but the illustration implies these soft nose bullets are capped.

Any thoughts?


#7

On page 74 of Fleming there are 3 loads listed for the 375 Rimless Nitro with LT Cap bullets:
Eley Cordite loading, 40gr. with 270gr. WRRN
Kynoch Cordite loading, 43gr. with 270gr. WRRN
Kynoch Axite loading with 270gr. WRRN

The only LT Cap bullet listed on this is the Westley Richards Round Nose Capped like the one above. No mention is made of a soft nose LT cap like the No. 2 (Lead Cap). Fleming however lists other loads by Eley, namely RNCN (Round Nose Cupro Nickel Solid) and RNCNSN (Round Nose Cupro Nickel Soft Nose) as “pre 1909”. This might explain the soft nosed bullets on the 1909 catalog?