380 Auto Kynoch WW2


#1

Noticed these 380 Auto on GB recently, they were mixed with Italian WW2 examples and got my interest as they are dated rounds. Who would Kynoch have made them for?


#2

[quote=“LesB”]Noticed these 380 Auto on GB recently, they were mixed with Italian WW2 examples and got my interest as they are dated rounds. Who would Kynoch have made them for?
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I believe that you must omit one of the tags in order to make the pictures visible.


#3

They were made for general officers and aircrew armed with Colt M1908(?) pistols.

Regards
TonyE


#4

A total of 400 Colt .380 Pocket Hammerless autos were sent to England in 1942. They were in a minority to the .32 versions, sent in much bigger quantity. Shipments that included some .380s were made earlier, perhaps as early as WWI with a big shipment of Colt pocket autos made in the 1920s, and some pistols were simply sold commercially as well. Tony is undoubtedly right about the K44 rounds being made primarily for the WWII shipments.


#5

Did Kynoch make any .32 ACP with a date during WW2?


#6

Not that I have ever seen. AFAIK they used commercial headstamped ammo.

The Colts that came over in WWI were mainly for private purchase, although it is possible some were military issue, but I have not traced any contracts. The 1918 Priced Vocabulary of Stores lists .32ACP, .380ACP and .38ACP as available as military issue.

The 1920s shipment was primarily for MI5 and others working undercover in Ireland during the troubles.

Regards
TonyE


#7

MI5 stayed with .380 calibre for a long time. Later using Walthers. The gun carried by James Bond in the original Ian Fleming books was a Walther PPK and that was historically accurate. Flemings attention to detail on these matters was very good because he had first hand experience. I believe they were used until quite recently. They were also carried by Royal Protection Officers.


#8

I thought that Bond’s PPK was in .32 ACP? Mind you, it is about four decades since I read the books…

I do recall an incident (1970s?) when a man attacked Princess Anne and her Protection Officer’s PPK jammed…


#9

[quote=“TonyWilliams”]I thought that Bond’s PPK was in .32 ACP? Mind you, it is about four decades since I read the books…

I do recall an incident (1970s?) when a man attacked Princess Anne and her Protection Officer’s PPK jammed…[/quote]

Yes Tony the incident you refer to took place in the Mall and the protection officer’s thumb jammed the slide. Easy to do if you are not used to shooting small autos.

In the original Bond books Fleming refers, rather ambiguously, to Bond’s PPK as being 9mm. This was not the typical error associated with firearms in books. Fleming was very meticulous about such detail and he was an insider as far as MI5 was concerned.
It is reasonable to assume that if Fleming chose to use the European designation of the calibre which was 9mm (S for short or more likely K for Kurtz) rather that the British/ US designiation of .380 Auto he was reflecting real life. In other words thats how it was referred to inside MI5

I suggest that is because the pistols which were German made had 9mm stamped on the side. I believe they were liberated from the Germans at the end of the war but can offer no evidence to support that belief.


#10

I have no idea where the MI5 PPKs came from, but I know for a fact (from the first American to walk into the Walther Factory) that they were in full fledge production of PPKs a that point had he thought they just kept on working there assembling pistols for lack of anything better to do. There were probably lots of new-unissued pistols floating around at the end of the war.


#11

British special force were, and still are, terrible “liberators” of all kinds of equipment if they think it might be useful to them.

A friend of mine was issued with a Walther in the late 80s in Northern Ireland so they were still in service then. This probably makes the .380 the longest serving calibre in the British Army if it first went into Service in WW1.
In truth, the .22 probably has greater claim to that title but it wasn’t used on active service.


#12

Vince - in a sense, the .22 was used in active service in England. I have heard that spies were executed in the basement of a bullet with .22 rifles, fired using a cleaning patch over the target’s heart as an aiming point. If true, that would put the .22 used on active service in WWII, even if in the smallest way. I suspect some .22 silenced pistols were probably used by Commandos or the like, as well. I could be wrong about that. I know that our OSS guys had them.


#13

John Several spies were shot in the .22 indoor range at the tower of London and I think that is what you are referring to. By some quirk of British Law spies were shot rather than hanged.
The spies were strapped to a chair with a piece if cloth over the heart as you describe. At least one of the chairs still survives complete with bullet holes in the back. Although it was a .22 range the bullet holes are clearly .303 and there are several fired cartridge cases around which it is claimed were used in the executions. At least one has been engraved with the name and date and is mounted on a board.


#14

Here is a picture of the chair

www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/to … ten-things